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Subject: Concentration Of Artillery Fire
maximas    1/19/2008 3:35:28 PM
In modern age survivabilty of artillery pieces have become difficult due to advancement in surveilllance and target acquisation devices.As a result artillery pieces have to be deployed at more distance and in small groups.This irregular deployment pattern would result in lack of dense artillery fire at target,thus reducing its effects.In your view what procedure can one adopt at gun position to engage targets with same desity and effect
 
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00_Chem_AJB       1/19/2008 4:40:31 PM
However with the over all increase in accuracy with artillery systems; massed fire is needed less and less as the few shells that are fired hit and destroy the target. Or you can do the Russian thing and mount two guns on a SP system.
 
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Herald12345       1/19/2008 4:49:13 PM

In modern age survivabilty of artillery pieces have become difficult due to advancement in surveilllance and target acquisation devices.As a result artillery pieces have to be deployed at more distance and in small groups.This irregular deployment pattern would result in lack of dense artillery fire at target,thus reducing its effects.In your view what procedure can one adopt at gun position to engage targets with same desity and effect

Do what the Americans did in WW II.  Spread the artillery out all over in little clusters and then when you need to SMASH something range in every individual gun on the same map coordinate and pulverize it quickly, then move every gun to new positions, and do it all over again.

Makes counterbattery almost a useless exercise.

Herald
 
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neutralizer       1/20/2008 1:47:56 AM
First it depends on the nature of operations and the capabilities of the enemy.  Deploying further back limits the work that your guns can do, in effect they have partially neutralised themselves which saves the enemy from doing it.  The correct solution is to win the CB battle.
 
Spreading out makes CB more difficult for the enemy but has no effect on your own fire, basically electronics etc has solved such things as survey and computing an individual trajectory for every gun to put the fall of shot into the target space. 
 
Improvements in shell lethality and for larger calibres their rate of fire also reduces the need for the concentrated fire of many fire units unless the target is a very large area. 
 
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WarNerd       1/20/2008 2:13:15 AM
Actually, with the improvements in communications and fire control the ability to place fire on the target, and to perform 'time on target' from multiple sources of varying size, has never been greater.
 
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Carl S       1/22/2008 7:11:27 PM
To restate the several previous posts:

The original post seems to be based on the assumption that physical concentration of the cannon or rocket launchers is required for concentrating fires on a target.  This is necessary only when a lack of communications equipment or shortage of skilled battery leaders exists.  Even 80 years ago most armys had the ability to mass fires from batterys seperated by several kilometers within a hour or less.   By the end of WWII entire brigades could massed on a single target in just minutes without a single battery within sight of another.

A second assumption in the original post is that "target accquisition devices" can operate without interferance.  Unfortunatly these things put out a electromagnetic or radar signal that can be rapidly DF by a signals intel unit.  Activating these things for just a few seconds invites imeadiate counterfires.  In the arty commands I trained in counter battery/mortar radars were a fairly high priority target.  
 
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Fork       3/14/2008 6:09:18 PM
Its true that at present it is difficult to engage targets with conventional shoots...many of which seem obsolete (as they take more time) due to advancement in surveilllance and target acquisation devices... One of the solutions can be the shoot and and scoot technique being followed with self propelled artillery. Further in my view the problem of density of fire by deploying artillery pieces at more dist can only be solved by the engagment of a single target with one of the battery's section ...and once enemy CB comes some other section may be asked to engage the same target. In this way the aim of CB will be totally defeated.   
 
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neutralizer       3/15/2008 3:32:56 AM
Conventional shoots don't take any time at all, and they're getting faster as the data is reticulated ever more seamlessly.  Adjustment is very rarely needed because predicted fire is accurate due to up to date meteor and positioning and orienting systems.
 
Shoot and scoot is old news, I was doing it in 1964, and today you can do it with towed guns just as easily as with SPs.  However, the price is that constant movement is very tiring.  The reality is you employ artillery deployment tactics and practices that are appropriate to the threat.  If the threat is high then use gun manouvre areas operating the battery in sections if not single guns, not shoot and scoot.
 
However, the first priority may be to win the CB battle, and their are plenty of nodes in the CB system that can be acquired and attacked, some more critical than others.  Of course a quick review suggests there's never (not even in WW1) been two sides with equally capable CB systems, one is always weaker in some way.  There's a lesson here.
 
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Carl S       3/18/2008 6:37:23 AM
Just to make sure I am understanding the language of these statments.

"Its true that at present it is difficult to engage targets with conventional shoots...many of which seem obsolete (as they take more time) due to advancement in surveilllance and target acquisation devices..."

Exactly what 'advancement in surveillance and target acquisation devices...'?   The very best equipment I trained with in the 1990s changes our tactics only slightly from the 1970s, or the 1950s for that matter.  Perhaps I missed something very new and radical in the last nine years.

"..conventional shoots...many of which seem obsolete (as they take more time)"

What is meant by conventional here and what is meant as the unconventional alternatives?  
 
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Carl S       3/18/2008 6:43:16 AM
Changing the subject slightly, heres some links to a computer wargame under development.  Amoung other things it models artillery in a better manner than any others I have seen.  The maps, graphics, and fundamental system have impressed me in ways no other computer games have.  Take a look.

Battle Command
link class="khtml-block-placeholder">
link
 
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neutralizer       3/19/2008 4:56:46 AM
Actually things have moved on.  COBRA is far more effective in terms of its target handling capabilities than anything anyone had in the 1990s.
 
APS is streets ahead of old fashioned sound ranging.
 
Airborne radars are good for following units on the move (which tends to make 'shoot and scoot' a bit pointless if your counter indirect fire sensors are networked (as they are in Basra in what the US currently calls the 'counter indirect fire test box')).
 
perhaps also, ahem, UAVs?   At bit thin on the ground in the US land forces in the 1990s IIRC. 
 
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TrustButVerify       3/27/2008 6:51:33 PM
I'm no redleg, but would loss of concentration necessarily be the case given modern fire direction computers and communications? I see no reason why aiming instructions can't be tailored for each individual tube.
 
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Carl S       3/28/2008 12:07:51 AM
They are and have been.  The firing solution is easily computed for each tube. with specific corrections for that particular tube.  That capability was in the Battery Computer System I first trained with in 1983. 
 
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neutralizer       3/28/2008 3:34:47 AM
And with that came giving each gun coordinates of its own aimpoint, according to the sheaf pattern and size of the target.  Before this, with manual methods or gen 1 computers, firing data was calculated battery centre to target centre and the layout of the mpis over the target reflected the layout of the battery position.  Of course there were standard procedures to concentrating all guns ont a single aimpoint and spreading them out in a linear (or illuminating pattern).
 
Concentrating the fire of several batteries onto a single target started to become common in 1915 when European armies got serious about indirect fire.  So 'Firepower Mobility', where fire is moved not the guns, is now approaching its one hundredth anniversary.  It won WW1 and without it WW2 would have been a lot more difficult.
 
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