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Subject: Why no Regenerative Liquid Propellant Gun?
reefdiver    5/24/2009 12:25:57 PM
Regenerative Liquid Propellant Guns have apparently been studied for some time. Other than being mechanically complex - as either a mono or binary propellant must be pumped into the chamber at each firing - with admittedly minimal research I've not found why no such gun has been fielded. Their would seem to be many advantages: easy adjustment of amount of propellant to adjust range, less fouling of barrel (?), more compact storage. Safer storage when using binary systems etc. Charts I looked at even indicated better performance and perhaps pressures beyond those attainable by solids. Though studied mainly for cannon, I would think you could almost scale these things to personal weapons. So why no RLP Gun yet?
 
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reefdiver       5/24/2009 12:28:47 PM
NOTE: Sorry for the double post. Got an error on submission and reposted... Please use newer post.
 
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WarNerd       5/25/2009 6:37:32 AM
Some possible reasons:
 
-- RLP systems are only advantageous for guns that use separate projectile and incremented propellant charges.  For NATO this would mostly be the 155mm systems. 
-- RLP is probably only usable on self propelled guns due to added weight, complexity, and power requirements.
-- None of the advantages you listed, either singularly or together, provides a 'show stopping' advantage.  And, unlike other changes in gun systems, RLP represents a significant change in the weapon itself, rather than an incremental improvement.  Hence it has the potential for actual failure, rather than just not living up to it's hype.  That can terrify a bureaucrat into indecision.
-- Reliability.  You are injecting a large amount of propellant very quickly into the combustion chamber at extremely high pressures while the gun is firing.  Nobody has any idea how it will stand up in actual use with field maintenance.
 
-- Competition.  RLP systems are only one of many concepts that are competing with each other for the next big thing in guns, including rail guns, electrothermal propulsion, various plasma enhanced combustion concepts, new propellants, and dual charge propulsion.  Currently no one design has a clear advantage over the others when all factors are taken into account.
 
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neutralizer       5/26/2009 5:53:27 AM
Liquid propellant has seemed like an obvious good idea for the last 50 years or more, and has been proclaimed as coming real soon on several occasions.  The attraction is less propellant to carry around.  Originally Crusader was gpoing to use, in the event it was dropped during development IIRC.
 
One scientist working in the field said the problem in one word to me "oxidiser".
 
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mabie       5/26/2009 5:57:16 AM
My layman's first thought is " What if it leaks?".. 
 
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Herald12345       5/26/2009 10:21:24 AM

My layman's first thought is " What if it leaks?".. 
The gun crew dies.
 
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reefdiver       5/26/2009 10:52:03 AM
Until the rail-gun arrives (with its own problems), some of the major advantages of the RLPG would however seem to be substantial:  instant infinitely adjustable charge and easier transfer of propellant - just pump it.
 
 
 
 
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ArtyEngineer    Herald   5/26/2009 8:03:58 PM



My layman's first thought is " What if it leaks?".. 



The gun crew dies.


Are the chemicals which would be used in such a Liquid Propellant really that nasty?  As mentioned by Neutraliser UDLP initially envisioned the XM2001 Crusader as being a liquid propellant gun but after the third instance of "Energentic Venting" and "High Speed Dissassembly" on the ordnance test bed that approach was abandoned!!!!!
 
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Herald12345    AE.   5/26/2009 8:20:48 PM







My layman's first thought is " What if it leaks?".. 








The gun crew dies.






Are the chemicals which would be used in such a Liquid Propellant really that nasty?  As mentioned by Neutraliser UDLP initially envisioned the XM2001 Crusader as being a liquid propellant gun but after the third instance of "Energentic Venting" and "High Speed Dissassembly" on the ordnance test bed that approach was abandoned!!!!!

There isn't a hypergolic of which I know that isn't deadly in some "interesting" way. Not to mention, that pressure overburden is the classic way we produce fragmentation effects.
 
 
 
 
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JFKY    Would   5/26/2009 10:09:22 PM
the propellant HAVE to be hypergolic?  Just asking...A fuel and an oxidizer, yes, but why not an external igniter, be it a hot wire, or a primer like artillery currently uses?
 
Liquid propellant has been a mil Sci-Fi staple for decades...and every year is "Next Year Jerusalem."
 
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mabie       5/26/2009 10:37:03 PM
Are the advantages really worth the expense and risk of development and operation? Smart artillery shells like Excalibur have drastically cut down the number of rounds needed to hit a target so minutely adjusting the propellant is not really an issue. Maybe you could reduce the number in your gun crew but sometimes its advantageous to have more hands around.
 
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WarNerd       5/27/2009 5:25:37 AM

Are the chemicals which would be used in such a Liquid Propellant really that nasty?  As mentioned by Neutraliser UDLP initially envisioned the XM2001 Crusader as being a liquid propellant gun but after the third instance of "Energentic Venting" and "High Speed Dissassembly" on the ordnance test bed that approach was abandoned!!!!!
 
Liquid Propellants are supposed to have toxicity similar to ANFO for the mono-propellants.  The binary propellants would presumably be selected so as to be even less hazardous until mixed.  They are most definitely NOT hypergolic.
 
The big problem with any propellant is controlling the deflagration rate so as to not exceed the allowable pressure.  In solid propellants this is done by controlling the grain size and shape and using retardant coatings.  None of these are possible with a liquid propellant, so the only solution is to introduce it into liquid propellant into the firing chamber at a controlled rate while the gun is firing.  It's a bit like a diesel engine, except everything is much bigger, much faster, and at MUCH higher pressures.
 
Inject the propellant to fast, or fail to maintain a smooth rate, and you get "Energetic Venting" (cracked breach) and "High Speed Disassembly" (explosion). 
 
How difficult is that?  Well figure you are going to have to inject 60% to 80% of the total propellant mass into the combustion chamber at 80,000 psi in less than 0.002 seconds, while preventing the detonation wave from projecting up stream into wherever the uninjected portion of the propellant charge is located.
 
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Herald12345    Hypergolics    5/27/2009 2:41:16 PM
eliminate the oxidizer problem. As for the toxicity of the other compounds, CANCER DEATH from the fumes breathed in is no joke.

Herald
 
 
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HIPAR       5/27/2009 8:51:59 PM
The developmental liquid propellant gun I saw being developed for the Crusader was huge and had too many moving parts.  If I remember correctly, there was also a major corrosion problem with an internal piston. There were several microcomputers that choreographed its firings.  There was a 'rats nest' of electrical cabling.
 
The developmental gun misfired causing damage with attendant delays while it was being repaired.  It was unlikely that cannon would ever receive a safety release. 

---  CHAS
 

 
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neutralizer       5/29/2009 6:28:55 AM
There's also a real peactime safety issue, 100% confidence that the propellant injection system always injects the correct amount of propellant.  It may be less important in war but if you plan to use it in somewhere like Germany, where the Kommandantur has personal legal responsibilities to ensure safe practice, then the best of luck.  As a gunnery instructor I experienced having to convince Kommandantur at Baumholder that an artillery laser rangefinder was safe, even though they had been used at other ranges in Germany (eg Munsterlager and Bergen Hohne) it may have coloured my perspective, but its a real issue.
 
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