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Subject: Light-gun upgrade
Aussiegunner    5/13/2004 9:31:04 AM
Anybody see the latest from Janes? Apparently the British army are not going to buy light-weight 155mm's to replace the L-118, instead opting for better ammo for the light gun. Apparently the ammo has 20% more destructive capability and gives the gun over 20km in range, with base-bleed ammo.

Any thoughts on this decision?
 
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Aussiegunner    Base-Bleed Ammo   5/13/2004 9:32:05 AM
Can anybody tell me what it is and how does it increase a guns range?
 
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doggtag    RE:Light-gun upgrade   5/13/2004 9:44:02 AM
some of the newer 105mm computer designed shells have much greater lethality, putting them nearer to some 155mm performance. Have you seen the South African LEO 105, that can fire these newer, more lethal shells out to 30km? Gotta love Jane's, but damn! It breaks the piggybank to keep a subscription going!
 
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macawman    Base bleed ammo or RAP round   5/13/2004 3:48:00 PM
Aussie check out this site. I think it will answer you questions. link
 
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sandbagger    RE:Light-gun upgrade   5/13/2004 3:48:19 PM
Doggtag: I've heard about those new 105mm shells. They sound pretty impressive. It seems there are a few new options coming around for 105s that the Brits might want to look into. In addition to the Leo, there was an article on the Defense Daily website a few weeks back that talked about a new 105mm gun being developed by United Defense that's suppose to be pretty light and fire out to 30 klicks using M232 MACS charges.
 
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doggtag    RE:Light-gun upgrade   5/13/2004 3:56:47 PM
sandbagger, that gun borrows considerably from the SA LEO 105, under a joint memorandum with UDLP (Jane's Defense Weekly). I have seen a prototype turret mounting the weapon on the LAV(ideally, Stryker) 8x8 hull (also in JDW). It is also a contender for the US FCS program if the 155mm concept bellies up. With such improved ammunition, it may be in danger of doing so. Plus, there is an entire tried-and-true family of 105mm ammunition to use also. And the long 52 caliber barrel of the LEO would make it effective to use as an antitank gun with direct fire APFSDS, if necessary. Assuming the system would be incorporating the liquid propellant/laser ignotion system, these could all be utilized instead of full-cased ammunition. Tell the Brits to bring back the Abbots, boys!
 
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Aussiegunner    RE:Light-gun upgrade - Dogtag   5/13/2004 7:30:53 PM
"Gotta love Jane's, but damn! It breaks the piggybank to keep a subscription going" I'm lucky in that my university library has a copy on the shelves every week. You need to find a library that does the same!
 
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Aussiegunner    RE:Base bleed ammo or RAP round   5/13/2004 7:33:47 PM
I didn't realise that base-bleed rounds were just RAP's. Why are they always refered to as a different type of ammo?
 
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doggtag    RE:Base bleed ammo or RAP round   5/13/2004 8:56:03 PM
A base bleed round has a slow-burning device in the tail to improve the airflow efficiency around the tail, reducing drag and giving a slight range enhancement. But a RAP , I believe, has a bit more "kick" in the form of a small, low-impulse rocket motor to get it up a bit higher in the atmosphere, giving a bit more range (normally at the expense of some accuracy)than just a base bleed element.. Can any artillery people add anything on this? ...
 
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doggtag    Jane's   5/13/2004 8:58:37 PM
....I'd just as soon have it for my own library to reference, Aussiegunner ...
 
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Aussiegunner    RE:Base bleed ammo or RAP round   5/14/2004 3:56:44 AM
So does base-bleed come at the expense of bomb size, compared to normal rounds? Does it have a bigger bomb than an RAP?
 
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Aussiegunner    RE:Jane's   5/14/2004 3:57:32 AM
Me to, but like you said, too much for the piggy bank!
 
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Vossiewulf    RE:Base bleed ammo or RAP round   5/14/2004 5:28:27 AM
I don't know much about artillery rounds, but I do know a little aerodynamics, and the base-bleed idea as outlined by doggtag makes sense. There's a big low-pressure turbulent zone behind the round that acts as drag in a couple ways. If you had a little exhaust stream to smooth out the flow around the tail end of the round, it makes sense that it would travel farther. So the "rocket" in this case wouldn't be to add much thrust, just to improve the round's aerodynamics.
 
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Mark F    RE:Base bleed ammo or RAP round   5/14/2004 9:02:03 AM
Base Bleed is not the same as RAP. Where a RAP round actually has a rocket booster to propel the round further, Base Bleed does not provide boost, it only improves aerodynamics. In terms of the ranges possible, Base Bleed is quite competitive with RAP - unless you get into extreme cases like ERGM or LRLAP. Let's look at some examples. Back when NORICUM produced copies of Gerry Bulls artillery designs they also produced his ammunition designs; the ERFB (Extended Range Full Bore) and ERFB-BB (as above with Base Bleed). ERFB relies on an elongated and streamlined shape combined with a hollow "boat tail" to achieve greater range than conventional artillery shells (M107 for example). Typical increases were 43% from an L39 barrel and 68% from an L45. A Base Bleed unit can be fitted to these ERFB rounds, making them ERFB-BB for even greater range increases. The Base Bleed is a tail unit containing fuel-rich but oxygen deficient materials is screwed to the base of an ERFB projectile. When fired, the unit releases gases into the wake of the projectile via a small port where it burns to increase pressure locally thus reducing base drag. From an L45 barrel a typical ERFB can achieve a range of about 30,000 meters but with -BB can achieve around 39-40,000 meters. In the case of the NORICUM rounds, the ERFB round weighed 45.5kg and had a maximum range from an L45 barrel of 30,300 meters. The ERFB-BB round weighed 48.5 kg (base bleed unit itself adds about 2kg), was 21mm longer but has a range from the same gun of 39,600m. MECAR of Belgium produced similar ammunition but designed specifically to improve the performance of the shorter M185 gun on the M109A1/A2. That gun firing the standard M107 HE round could reach out to 17,400 meters. The MECAR hollow-base ERFB round could reach 24,200 meters or with ERFB-BB 31,000 meters while carrying a greater payload of 8.8kg TNT vs 6.62kg for M107. Similar performance improvements can be achieved with other guns. The Russian M46 130mm field gun has a normal range of 27,500 meters. With ERFB-BB projectiles it can reach 37,000 meters. Just attaching a BB unit to a standard Russian projectile produces a range of 33,000 meters. Comparing BB to RAP, GIAT developed both BB and RAP rounds for its 155mm TR towed howitzer. The HE BB round had a maximum range from this weapon of 29,500 meters. The RAP was slightly better at 32,500 meters but then again, RAP rounds have a reputation for being less accurate so it is arguable if there is any real worthwhile gain here. It's a fair guess BB is probably cheaper too which would explain why RAP isn't as popular in "regular" applications as it used to be.
 
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Aussiegunner    RE:Base bleed ammo or RAP round   5/14/2004 9:45:13 AM
Thanks to all for the info on BB rounds. Mark F's comments seem to have answered my question about whether the lethality of the round is affected. Given that BB is an addition, this is probably not so, though I wonder if their are any implications for chamber size in a given gun? As for RAP's and accuracy, I was told by my Battery Captain that they are generally only usefull when you are firing a regimental fire mission, to interdict an entire grid square. Given that Australia doesn't deploy a regiment of 155mm guns, our only RAP capable type, I doubt that this feature is much use to us.
 
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doggtag    RE:Base bleed ammo or RAP round   5/14/2004 4:49:55 PM
outstanding, Mark. You saved me from writing all that. South Africa has under development the VLAP (Very Long range Artillery Projectile), which promises the potential of 60km or greater from their already impressive 40km+ G5/52 gun systems. If any of you get the History Channel (here I go again), at 10PM EST American time tonight (Friday), "Cannons" is on Modern Marvels... but I'm sure it will be on other times too. It looks like all-modern guns, not the medeival crap.
 
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