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Subject: The Baltic countries
Thomas    3/12/2004 3:53:20 AM
Today the Danish Daily Berlingske Tidende reported, that due to continued provocation from the Russians against the Airspace of the three baltic nations, NATO is considering deploying NATO fighters to the Countries. To minimise the symbolic nature - it is most likely that the smaller NATO countries such as Denmark and Holland will deploy. The Commander of the Danish Air Force is quoted: "If the government want them in place befor april 1st - he better get moving!"
 
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wildcat    RE:The Baltic countries - Ouch!   3/12/2004 1:33:35 PM
That should get the Russian bear's attention! I don't think that it's worth antagonizing Russia over considering the real threat, international terrorism, is a threat shared by most nations of the world. I would prefer to see NATO, Russia, Japan & Australia sit down and develop a coherent strategy to defeat terrorism. After terrorism is defeated, we can all go back to what we really do best, yell, whine, complain, etc. :)
 
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Thomas    RE:The Baltic countries    3/15/2004 5:00:13 AM
So would I, but there is not necessary a contradiction. On the other hand: It is important to make the Russians aware of the seriousness of the NATO. If the russians think they can roll back the effort over the last 15 years when we are not looking - they are mistaken. Personally I think It will only take a raised eyebrow in the form of flight of Danish or Dutch fighters to make the point in an unprovocatory way.
 
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wildcat    RE:The Baltic countries    3/15/2004 8:38:14 AM
Do you think they are pushing to "see" how far they can push?
 
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Thomas    RE:The Baltic countries    3/15/2004 9:17:03 AM
Precisely! It has more or less been agreed upon, that the Baltic states should concentrate on building up an Army, whereas Naval and Air Force ops will be other NATO countries. This in order not to strain the meagre resources and command infrastructure of these rather poor and small countries. Their main problem at the moment is that the army is exclusively a territorial defence. The NATO problem is that the US (in the view of the Baltic nations) have come on a bit to strong, and they are very conscious of maintaining their newly won independence - few US Colonels have a degree in tact. Tactics Yes - Tact NO. That is one of the backgrounds for the role played by Denmark, as we are a small country, that immediately supported their freedom from the russian yoke. We did not recognise their independence, as we had not recognised the Soviet occupation in the first place!
 
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Big Bad Pariah    RE:The Baltic countries    3/15/2004 11:10:09 AM
Russia was simply testing the defences of the Baltic nations. The Baltic nations have tried to move away from Russian influence since they gained independence from the USSR in 1991. This has left Russia isolated in some ways now that its former satellites are turning against it. So yes, both sides have some hostility towards each other but I doubt it will ever lead to conflict.
 
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wildcat    RE:The Baltic countries    3/15/2004 12:04:57 PM
Interesting. Could you provide more insight into the worries of the Baltic countries with regards to their independence and the US?
 
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Jay    RE:The Baltic countries   3/15/2004 12:25:39 PM
Russia has always cast coveted eyes on the Baltics. If the Russians are doing overflights they're doing it for a reason, to see how far they can push. I doubt if Putin's crazy enough to consider invading, but with them who knows what the next government-of-the-month might do. I say better to nip it in the bud now, the longer it goes on the more messy it will get to stop.
 
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Thomas    RE:The Baltic countries   3/16/2004 2:52:21 AM
The three Baltic countries: Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania gained independence of Russia at the end of WW1. Before WW1 the countries were deliberately kept underdeveloped, so the German warmachine would have a tough going through land with sump, mashes and no proper roads. They were reoccupied by Stalin before the attack on Russia by Nazi-Germany. They were "liberated" by Nazi-Germany during the war. After the war they fought an intense guerilla war, which lasted untill the mid 1950'ies where the last freedom fighters were butchered. Denamrk has quite a lot of goodwill in Estonia to a reason we are not proud of: The Danish SS-volunteers (never more than a Bn) fought the russian around Narva - and to an Estonian: No-one that has fought Russians can be a bad person. During the afterwar occupation there were massive attempt of "Russification" which Estonia and Latvia still bears marks of with a large minority of russianspeaking - which is no wonder as very few people speak Estonian, Latvian or Lithiuanian - the languages have nothing in common with one another. Present day problem includes the entaglement in a Soviet style economy. For instance a very large part of Latvias electricity is produced by the nuclear power plant Ignalina in Lithuania. So Lativia cannot develop their energy sector without severely hurting the exports of Lithuania.
 
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wildcat    RE:The Baltic countries   3/16/2004 10:11:00 AM
That is a rough recent history.
 
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Thomas    RE:The Baltic countries   3/17/2004 8:12:53 AM
It is! The amazing thing is that they have been able to reform a nation and a people (or rather 3); but they have. Their main military problem now is, that they are so eager to accept help, that they have little critical sense. And they tend to get miffed, when "Uncle Sam" steps on their sore feet out of ignorance. I think Nato is doing excatly the right thing: Letting Denmark and other small European nations be agents: We understand what Nato wants, what it needs and what it is going to get (three different things). The major Danish effort (in my view) is the Baltic Defence Collage, where the new officers are trained and educated. The Headmaster, Brigadeer Clemmesen, is a Dane - with scathing remarks to the Danish military establishment.
 
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wildcat    RE:The Baltic countries   3/17/2004 5:39:47 PM
Just read "The New NATO and the Security of the Alliance Periphery States" by Clemmesen. What caught my attention was that he feels that China is more of a threat to Russia than America but Russia is trying to counter American influence in cooperation with China. Other than the fact that key players in Russian leadership of products of the cold war what are the reasons that the Russians fear American influence? It seems to me that Russia has more to gain by being a true strategic partner with the West. In particular, by increasing mutually beneficial economic ties. Countries with very strong economic ties are less likely to enter military conflict with each other and much more likely to provide mutual protection.
 
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Thomas    RE:The Baltic countries   3/18/2004 8:00:39 AM
You got realise that Russia fears competition, as they will loose. The only thing the rest of the world want from Russia is oil - and some other raw materials. If there is free competition, the mineral rich areas will want the money for themselves and not deliver the bribes to the cleptocrats in Moscow. This will not only mean that Russia falls apart, but also that Moscow will have all the problems and no way to finance them.
 
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swami    When the chips are down, everyone call on the Danish Air Force!   3/22/2004 9:55:56 PM
And you thought the Marine Corps was tough! (For those of you who think this is a slam on the Danes, I used to live there and really like them. It was just a joke,)
 
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Thomas    RE:When the chips are down, everyone call on the Danish Air Force!   3/24/2004 9:48:44 AM
Swami You are quite right: We will send a lot of retired school-teacher to S-P-A-N-K them!!! In fact our light infantry has quite a lot of exercises with the balts, so if attacked, they would attack NATO - which as said is a totally different kettle of fish. It is not so much we are tough - we aren't generally - but we are the ones that can tell things in a nice way. The rough stuff comes later, something like a warning from SYSOP. Where did You live in Denmark? I've lived in quite a lot of places - if you consider that possible in such a small country.
 
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wildcat    RE:When the chips are down, everyone call on the Danish Air Force!   3/24/2004 3:45:17 PM
Thomas, Are you a school-teacher? You've got to be some sort of academic to connect a german general who originally helped organize the US Army to the creation of jazz :)
 
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