Chirac chides Bush over Turkey in NATO meeting.

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Thomas RE:Chirac chides Bush over Turkey in NATO meeting. 6/29/2004 5:54:29 AM

Well Chirac keeps given Bush advise on how he should run his country, so ...

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FJV RE:Chirac chides Bush over Turkey in NATO meeting. 6/29/2004 12:57:31 PM

When Turkey joins Europe France (and Germany) will lose influence in Europe, because Turkey is able to stand up to France and Turkey is too big to ignore when it does.

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ilpars RE:Chirac chides Bush over Turkey in NATO meeting. - FJV 6/29/2004 4:25:53 PM

I think main problem is Turkey having close relations with USA. France have enough already from one of US allies (UK) in the EU, they probably do not want another one.

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Roman RE:Chirac chides Bush over Turkey in NATO meeting. - FJV 6/29/2004 8:45:38 PM

I think you are correct ilpars... in fact I believe that every statement Bush makes in favour of Turkey joining the EU makes the process less likely to occure, as Turkey will be associated with the U.S. which is currently not terribly popular in Europe...

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sentinel28a RE:Chirac chides Bush over Turkey in NATO meeting. - FJV 6/30/2004 1:38:39 AM

I wish Chirac would get over the fact that the French lost at Waterloo. You're no longer masters of Europe, pal.

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ilpars RE:Chirac chides Bush over Turkey in NATO meeting. - FJV 6/30/2004 2:53:37 AM

Heh, heh. France might be suspicious from Bush's over-support of Turkey. They may think that "Hmm. Maybe Bush do not want to see Turkey in EU. That could be why he supports enthusiasticly. " . Politics are a weird game.

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ilpars Bush rebuff to Chirac over Turkey 6/30/2004 3:25:38 AM

I feel myself like an extra in a political soup opera. Bush rebuff to Chirac over Turkey Tuesday, June 29, 2004 Posted: 1724 GMT (0124 HKT) Bush: As a European power, Turkey belongs in the EU. ISTANBUL, Turkey (CNN) -- U.S. President George W. Bush has repeated a call for the European Union to admit Turkey, despite criticism by France's President Jacques Chirac that he was meddling in EU affairs. Bush said Tuesday that Turkey belongs in the EU and that Europe is "not the exclusive club of a single religion" in what amounted to a rebuff to the French leader. In an address at Istanbul university, Bush refused to back down in the face of Chirac's criticism that Bush had no business urging the EU to set a date for Turkey to start entry talks into the union. He said that Turkey was moving rapidly to meet the criteria for EU membership. "America believes that as a European power, Turkey belongs in the European Union," Bush said. Turkey was a bridge to the wider world, Bush said. "Your success is vital to the future of progress and peace in Europe and in the broader Middle East," he said. He said that Turkish EU membership would be a "crucial advance" in relations between the Muslim world and the West because Turkey was part of both. The main message in the U.S. President's speech was a bid to mend relations between Muslims and Americans that were left tattered by the Iraq war. "We must strengthen the ties and trust and good will between ourselves and the peoples of the Middle East," he said. Bush held up Turkey as an example of a Muslim democracy. "Including Turkey in the EU would prove that Europe is not the exclusive club of a single religion, and it would expose the 'clash of civilizations' as a passing myth of history," Bush said. Chirac took Bush to task Monday over his call for Turkey's admission to the European Union. "If President Bush really said that in the way that I read, then not only did he go too far, but he went into territory that isn't his," Chirac said of a remark Bush made over the weekend. "It is is not his purpose and his goal to give any advice to the EU, and in this area it was a bit as if I were to tell Americans how they should handle their relationship with Mexico." Turkey has been keen to use this week's two-day NATO summit in Istanbul to showcase its credentials as a westward-looking democracy before December, when EU leaders decide if it has met the political criteria to be put on the formal road to EU membership. Countries such as Germany, Italy and Britain strongly back Ankara's bid, but Chirac's government has expressed wariness about kicking off a formal process to admit the relatively poor country of 70 million people. Bush's verbal spat with Chirac threatened again to upset relations with France, which leaders on both sides of the Atlantic had been working to mend. Chirac was one of the most outspoken critics of the U.S.-led war in Iraq, but France recently approved a U.S.-backed U.N. resolution recognizing the new Iraqi authority.

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Thomas RE:Bush rebuff to Chirac over Turkey 6/30/2004 4:21:40 AM

Let's look at the different EU nations position on Turkey: Germany: There is in principle nothing to hinder Turkey joining, but Germany knows who is going to pay. At the moment there is a large integration with Poland and others as new members - it is costly in the short term, and it does strain the administrative resources to educate civil servants, that hardly know what a limited liability company is. France has not rationalised its agricultural sector to the extend other European nations has. This means that the french farmer is on the dole. And support for Turkey will have to come out of the money to the French farmers. Britain is more or less indifferent, as Britain does not have the problem the other major EU countries have: Lack of oil. The staunch supporters of the USA policy in Iraq all have enough oil: Britain, Norway and Denmark. There is another and transnational split in Europe: Politically Europe is divided almost equally between socialdemocrats (liberal in american parlance) and Liberal/Conservative. The socialdemocrats are opposed at the moment to any extension of the EU with Turkey. Partly because Erdogan is NOT a social democrat, partly because the social democrats are in big trouble, due to the fact, that the labour movement has gained so exellent conditions for their members, that Europe loses jobs in industrial sector, thus reducing the social democratic power base and economic competitiveness: This is Schr�ders problem. Turkey: There are some real issues here: The backward agriculture in eastern Turkey. The civil war against the PKK was in its basis a peasant revolt - and NOT ethnical. Turgut �zal made the mistake of adressing the real issue - the economic problems in eastern Turkey before the revolt had been crushed - �zal thought you could do business with the thugs that had put themselves in charge of the grieviencies: Just as Chamberlain thought he could work with Hitler - there is absolutely no difference. Turkey can, and will eventually be, a valuable addition to the EU, if: 1. Turkish role in the oil-supply of Europe is secured (we need some tough people to do business with arabs and russians in the south) 2. Turkish agriculture and industry start growing crops that supplement the EU farmers crops: Cotton, oranges, tea, tobacco - IN A QUALITY and at a PRICE that satisfies european consumers - the most pampered in the world. The quality problems in Turkish Industry could be solved by having a bunch of German plantmanagers. The main problem is that (as far as I know) these interesting crops (with their associated industry) don't grow in the eastern Turkish problem area. The human rights issues will be solved as the new generation of police-officers reach senior positions.

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ilpars Turkish crops. 6/30/2004 4:39:38 AM

"2. Turkish agriculture and industry start growing crops that supplement the EU farmers crops: Cotton, oranges, tea, tobacco - IN A QUALITY and at a PRICE that satisfies european consumers - the most pampered in the world." Interesting part is Turkey is growing all of these crops in quantity and in reasonable price. By the way Turkish Tobacco is one of world's finest. James Bond always smokes Turkish tobacco in novels and in the films that Sean Connery played the Bond. Camel's became famous because it uses Turkish tobacco. (and that is why it uses the name Camel). Maybe French do not want us in because of our rapidly growing wine. As I have heard, it has a very unique taste and much cheaper than French.

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densoflex RE:Turkish crops-Ilpars 6/30/2004 4:59:26 AM

Up to you to make the whole problem of Turkey adhesion to EU a French problem, but it isn't. It is an EU problem. As often the French spoke more loudly than the others. And it can't be denied that Bush's statements on Turkey will do no good to Turkey's candidature. PS: true Ilpars, you have some good wines? Mmmmh, I'm thinking more positively of Turkey becoming EU member...

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ilpars EU - densoflex 6/30/2004 5:33:21 AM

Today only France is openly against Turkish entrance to EU. This December, EU will reach a decision over to iniatiate Turkish entrance (giving the date) to EU. Turkey still holds 1 last card for France. Turkish army project of buying 1000 modern tanks and 100 helicopters. Even France can not pass such an oppurtunity easily.

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Thomas RE:Turkish crops. 7/1/2004 11:50:49 AM

As for Turkish wine, Ilpars, with all due respect: You don't stand a chance against (I wont count the french in this context, to avoid upsetting bottles) Italians - besides why grow wine on some the earth best soil, if there are more profitable crops??? Don't get me wrong Ilpars, I have the greatest respect an preference for turkish vegetables and fruit (my somewhat limited turkish vocabulary consist mainly of vegetable names (I must get hold of a few verbs before my next visti to Turkey)). The general problem is the CONSISTENCY of quality of Turkish products: Example: We bought a "pike", excellent quality "pamuk" and weaving: Except for one thing: burnt holes in the middle of it. I'm wearing turkish underwear at the moment - wonderfull fabrik; but poorly sown. There is not the necessary cosistency in the quality. To eleborate: Denmark slaughters 24 million pigs annually: If just one oinker with disease reaches the consumer our entire export is in danger, so the slaughterhouses make very certain, that every side of bacon is up to standard. To transfer that to Turkey: What You need to do is to get organised, trained, not only at universities, but every single farmer! It's a tall order, but I'm afraid it is necessary.

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Alexis Why I oppose Turkey's entry into the EU 7/2/2004 6:40:07 AM

I think I can sum it up with four rationales : 1) I don't think the EU has any vocation to become World Government. Therefore, it should grow only within the confines of Europe, not in the Middle East, nor in Africa or America for that matter. 2) EU membership entails the right for any citizen of a member country to establish in any part of the EU. Turkey is presently a country with middle level development, much more than many Third World countries but much less than most European countries, and at the same time it has a large & quickly expanding population. Therefore, Turkey entry into EU would mean a large wave of Turkish immigration into Europe. Many European countries are presently in the process of integrating rather large Muslim immigrant populations, which even in countries with traditions of assimilation like France proves a rather longer process than with most other immigrants. It's not the proper time to accept a large new influx of Muslim immigrants. I hope not to be misunderstood : I have only respect for Muslim persons, some of them happen to be my countrymen. But I prefer to be honest about the problems I see, even at the price of not being PC. I don't like hypocrisy, and I'm afraid many European leaders are hypocritical about that issue. 3) EU membership supposes a solidarity by tax from the richer countries towards the poorer so as to develop the less wealthy regions. We have just accepted in May this year 10 new countries with 75 million people, generally much poorer than average. It's not the time to accept one large country with 69 million about as wealthy people. 4) As I understand it, Turkey's stability is based in part on the military acting when needed to maintain the secularist traditions of Mustapha Kemal. The military occasionnally acts outside of constitutional limits. But European standards of democracy being imposed on Turkey would entail / are entailing placing strong obstacles in this "keeper" role of the Turkish military ... at the same time when Islamism is gaining ground in the country. As a consequence, Turkey might be destabilized if it was to enter the EU, and become a fundamentalist stronghold BECAUSE of that entry ... with all the consequences. I would be much interested in everybody's comments about these rationales. Especially you Ilpars, and about the 4th one, since you obviously know your country better than I do.

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ilpars RE:Why I oppose Turkey's entry into the EU - Alexis 7/2/2004 7:53:07 AM

Alexis. It is an excellent post. These are the 4 main objections against Turkey's entry to EU. And you explained them simply and throughly. 1) In fact historically and culturally Turkey as a land is a part of Balkans not Middle_east. From the times of the Hittites. Turks are culturally very close to Greeks and Bulgarians but almost alien to Arabs. 2) An unknown fact is Turks in Turkey are culturally more advanced then Turks immigrated to Europe at 60's and 70's. Mostly because of minority mentality. They sticked to their old traditions while in Turkey traditions were revolutiased. Now in Turkey you can see a girl with a mini-skirt even in small towns. That is something can not be seen at 70's Turkey. A new immigrant wave to Europe from Turkey will have a benefit for Europe to break minority mentality of the Turks of Europe. When Turks lost their minority mentality they are great for adopting into other cultures. For example Turks living USA and Australia are so adopted into local populace that you can not understand that they are Turk until they tell you their name. Also Turkey probably will accept a special Turkey case limit to immigration. For Turkey the long run is that matters. Turkey onlt wants a guarantee from EU that Turkey will be in EU in the future. 3) Turkey is not poorer than the other 10 countries that are newly accepted into EU and have a more dynamic economy. With EU's expertise, Turkish economy can develop very rapidly. 4) The best side is both secularists and non-secularists wants to enter EU. Both sides see EU as a good and fair arbiter in their internal problems. Turkish non-secularists wants to develop into a movement similar to Christian Democrats. So, entrance into EU will more stabilise Turkey. One unknown fact is Turkish army is not happy to be of their keeper role. They want that Civil Public Organisations will take over this res�onsibility in a democratic way. Entrance to EU will also strenghten this iniative recently (last 15 years) seen in Turkish democracy. So with entrance into EU, Turkish army could fully concentrate on their real purpose of existance. To pretect the nation from external threats. Additional benefits to EU from Turkish entrance: 1. Turkish army is one of the world's best. EU will need it in the future. 2. Turkish political connections at Asia and Africa. Sad but true . French and British imperial ambitions still remembered at many parts of World. Turkey has much better relations with many of them. For example: Turkey is one of the very few countries who has very good relations with both Pakistan, India and Bangladesh. One of the few countries allied to USA and have good relations with China and Cuba.

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Thomas RE:Why I oppose Turkey's entry into the EU - Alexis 7/5/2004 7:06:10 AM

If I may second Ilpars: 1. Turkey is never going to be a member of the EU, if it will not of both security and economic benfit to the rest of Europe. It will be: It has some of the best agricultural land in the world - and European consumers are critical and parsemonious. The Turkish agriculture needs to get organised, and they will eventually. It is a question of timing. It is very true that the emigrant to Europe are from the more backward areas in Turkey - in all respects. I can positively confirm, that turkish immigrants in Denmark are to an extraordinary extend form the area around Konya. The area is known for its muslim piety (and I'm not equating piety with radicalism!!) and intemarrige: You hear turks in Denmark say: What's wrong with marring your cousin - our parents and grand parents did so too??? Not surpricing: A disproportionate number of birth defects happen to turkish immigrants. That is not the Turkey I know from my travels. The married couples I know have chosen one another, but they know of arranged marriages. The turks I know try to eke out an existence and have to transit from agriculture and fishing to other jobs. The turks I know are tough on crime, simple theft gets you 3-10 years in a TURKISH Prison (that redefines the concept of hard time). You might bribe the Police; but try that with the Jandarma, and you will know what the word trouble means. Health care is relatively expensive; but of a higher quality than in this country - at least in so far as the word CARE is concerned. The social costuoms are changing and what we in the west understand by womens role is getting there - allthough there is a long way to go. In fact the muslim religion IS NOT the problem, some political opportunist try - with some success - to make it that. PKK and others of that ilk are using the transition from a village culture in eastern Turkey to fuel their otherwise uninteresting political agenda. I don't know when Turkey will join the EU, but a gradually expanding cooperation might be the way. Finally The EU is not seeking world domination: The EU is seeking to close it's economy - just like the US economy is closed - thus gaining more control of the economic development in Europe.

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