"Now not being a Geopolotican..I am deeply interested in why "we",we Being 19 countries WANTED that war. To streach our Military again? To risk our soldiers lives? Just fancied a scrap?" (Tommy Atkins) ----- Aaaah, at last an occasion to give a good thrashing! Well, now we all know that you are an absolute dud at geopolitics... At least, you are frank enough to recognize it. Take your first lesson, kid: First, you have to know that there were many economic "incentives" for intervening in Kosovo: -future access to Caspian oil. -strategic NATO expansion -arms sales -access to new markets resources and minerals in Kosovo and Yugoslavia. "The determination by the U.S and NATO, at all costs, to occupy Kosovo and virtually all of Yugoslavia, is spurred on by the enticement of abundant natural resources. Kosovo alone has the richest mineral resources in all of Europe west of Russia. The New York Times observed that "the sprawling state-owned Trepca mining complex, the most valuable piece of real estate in the Balkans, is worth at least $5 billion." producing gold, silver, pure lead, zinc, cadmium, as well as tens of millions of dollars in profits annually. "Kosovo also possesses 17 billion tons of coal reserves and Kosovo (like Serbia and Albania) also has oil reserves." "A number of unofficial partition plans have been drawn up for Kosovo all raising the question of who would control an important northern mining region," the New York Times revealed. Trepca was also a "glittering prize" taken over by Hitler to fuel the Nazi war machine during WWII." -- From Backing Up Globalization with Military Might Since the bombing has ended, numerous US bases in the Balkans have been set up. A military base is being built in Kosovo, described as the largest US foreign base built since the Vietnam War. "Behind the propaganda of a humanitarian war, U.S./NATO bases have been constructed in Albania, Croatia, Bosnia, Hungary, Macedonia, and Kosovo. The Balkans, a region of enormous strategic importance, rich natural resources and important industrial capacity is now occupied by thousands of US troops. All this has happened without any informed debate or discussion." -- Sara Flounders, Censored 2000, (Seven Stories, 2000) p. 44 Yet, equally important is the wider Balkan conflict that has been going on for years: As J.W. Smith points out and details in his book, Economic Democracy, (M.E. Sharpe, 2000), throughout history, the centers of power have often raided and plundered their "countryside" to maintain dominance and control of access to resources. When these so-called peripheries were plundered, their basic industry would often be destroyed. We have seen this pattern with Yugoslavia as well. With the Soviet collapse, Yugoslavia was the main economic power in East Europe and for good or bad, (it is hard to know for sure) would have potentially dominated developments in Eastern Europe, which had highly skilled, comparatively cheap labor as well as resources. The years of destabilization in Yugoslavia and the Balkans has therefore had this in mind as well, as Smith details. Furthermore, with the bombing of Serbia being mainly destruction of civilian infrastructure (not military, I insist), we see this pattern throughout history that Smith has also detailed of plundering the "periphery" by destroying their means of production and crippling their economic capabilities preventing future development and being dependent upon the conquerors. (See J.W. Smith, Institute for Economic Democracy, and their book, Economic Democracy; Political Struggle for the 21st Century, (M.E. Sharpe, 2000), especially chapter 6, extracts of which are available on line at their web site.) Russia saw NATO attacks on Yugoslavia as a direct threat to itself. In fact apparently some polls showed that 92 percent of Russians condemned the bombings while 70,000 young Russians had even registered as would-be volunteers for Yugoslavia. We have all been told that before the bombing began, all the diplomatic efforts did not yield any silver linings. What has not been mentioned in much detail is that Milosevic in fact did suggest that he would consider a UN or other, non-NATO force, but for the US, this was not the silver-lining that the US wanted. A leaked version of the Pentagon's 1994-1999 Defense Planning Guidance report advises that the United States "must seek to prevent the emergence of European-only security arrangements which would undermine NATO. Therefore, it is of fundamental importance to preserve NATO as the primary instrument of Western defense and security, as well as the channel for U.S. influence and participation in European security affairs.". This is setting a pretty serious precedent -- even though perhaps there may have been better options available, the US did not want to consider them, because it wanted to have a (leading) role in Europe's security affairs and keep Europe dependent

Mailrait I find your arguments sound and was investigating the Kosovo Farce from the first day of bombing 2 years ago; unfortunately you'll never get through to some people on such matters, because it's very hard to believe for some people. Often enough I've found that they're content to call you a Troll for not towing the mass line like everyone else and will throw empty rhetoric at you when prevented with cold hard facts that are entirely uncontroversial. Deep down they know they're wrong. However, I would say that it'd be better if you didn't gloat so much; I can see you enjoy a good scrap :)

The prime shame of the Kosovo war is only that Clinton did not move on it sooner. There is little doubt in my mind that Clinton finally engaged the serbs largely in part to draw attention from his domestic problems. This becomes however, a case of something good coming out of something bad. Unfortunately many conservative Americans despise Clinton so much, and rightfully so, that they tend to write-off anything he touched as negative. This is a case where that should not be done, as the war was needed and long overdue. Anyone who studies Milosevic's political life can see an obvious trail of race-baiting and intentional creation of artificial conditions to whip up hatred and gain him support. This is not to condone the actions of the KLA and others. But a portrayal of Milosevic as a man caught up in times where he was forced to take the actions he did from necessity is an utter falsehood. I encourage anyone who sees him that way to look at his rise to power. It is funny to see how situations like these separate those with genuine convictions from those who just like to cause trouble. Malrait rails about fascism and racism and human rights in all of his droolings, yet when he sees conservative writers of this board in support of the Kosovo war he immediately rushes to to the aid of Milosevic and takes the cause of a right wing maniac. He changes sides so fast he'd make a good Afghan soldier. No, I take that back, he'd make a lousy Afghan soldier, but he does have the turncoat thing down pat.

More of the classic Malrait Rot, 1)Kossovo has nothing, whatever, to do with Central Asian oil. The ONLY thing even remotely close to Kossovo which relates to Caspian oil is Turkey. American relations with Turkey are not and never will be based on anything which happens in Kossovo. 2)Events in the Balkans relate weakly to "NATO expansion", if at all. The only even vaguely logical argument along this line would be something in the "power vacuum" column. i.e. Dictate the form of the successor states to the FY in order to prevent the creation of a power vacuum on NATO's borders. However, this is to confuse NATO policy **external** to NATO with NATO's internal policy. There is NO desire to allow any part of the FY to join NATO with the sole exception of Slovenia, which was not part of any of these events. The key to membership in NATO, in parallel to the key to membership in the EU, is the perception of the members that the applicants be of compatible nature. Slovenia looks like a typical European state, and, so, presents no insupperable problems to membership. The REST of the FY looks little like modern, democratic states, and, so are repugnant to the members of NATO and the EU, alike. As long as they do, they will not be popular candidates for membership. 3)Arms sales, real or imagined, are trivial. Just exactly how much money do you believe Kossovo will have in the NEXT 100 YEARS to spend on arms? Might as well pontificate over the potential sales to Burkina Faso. Which, I imagine, you have.... 4)"Access to new markets resources and minerals in Kossovo and Yugoslavia" Oh, Malrait. You are such an amusing fellow. The "New markets" of Kossovo. LOL You ought to work on a standup act. You could play the next IMF conference. The Friday night mixer. You could open for the Milton Friedman Big Band. I'll put in a word for you. Someday, in the far future, if things go perfectly, Kossovo could aspire to challenge the economic power of Iceland. Where do you get this nonsense? There AREN'T any "resources" in the former Yugoslavia which can't be found elsewhere, in abundance. None of high scarcity. None of huge amounts. (Not with respect to an economy the size of the EU.) You seem to be applying a mixture of a complete misunderstanding of the politics with a degree of economic sophistication appropriate to the 17th century. But, who among us is suprised?

This one should make Malrait wet the bed (even more than usual). My buddy who works as a part-time professor at the local community college just called. I've been approved to start teaching there as an instructor beginning with the summer session, Criminal Justice and History with a path towards an associate professorship and tenure. Imagine that, a forum from which to forward my conservative views to college freshmen and sophmores. Jeez, an unlimited license to bash the left and make an impact on their recruiting base. Pissed off Malturd? GOOD!

Well. BSL nicely summs it up. Arms sales.The US used "going out of stock"weapons in The bombing.KLA receive CIS weapons.All their training doctrine and ammo is geared to it.If the Kosovo Air force starts flying F16s in a few years ,ill say you have a point.at the moment you have a biases opinion which you read somewhere that fits your veiw of the world. Oil access.Total proven oil reserves for the area are 335 million barrels, all in Croatia, Yugoslavia, and Albania. http://www.eia.doe.gov/cabs/balkans.html no more needs to be said about this other than if an area was worth capturing and installing a puppet government,It aint Kosovo.Once again Malriat falls over breaking some teeth as he does so. Mineral resourses.Once again not a warfighting amount is there?Apart from coal.Coal! Right!THE most cost effective mineral to ship to the "new Masters "of kosovo,accross the Atlantic.They would really be Quids in eh? The USA and UK are having to spend hundreds of millions to repair the country from a decade of war.Financially it was a disaster.Politically and Moraly it was a victory for us and them. Nato Strategic expansion?To be honest Malriat on this point you may be right.I dunno.You cant prove that this was the reason..i cant prove it wasnt.It all comes down to what you want to beleive.I dont doubt that on occasins like ANY government there is not just one agenda.But to say that The west WANTED the war without being able to offer any substansive Proof,and winging about ultimatums. What would your reaction have been if NATO had done nothing.the Kosovars would now be all displaced to Albania or theiy would have died.Returning Kosovars after the war found Serb familys had moved in from serbia proper into their homes. no doubt you would have been posting"US bastards..why did you let the Kosovars down?

Well. BSL nicely summs it up. Arms sales.The US used "going out of stock"weapons in The bombing.KLA receive CIS weapons.All their training doctrine and ammo is geared to it.If the Kosovo Air force starts flying F16s in a few years ,ill say you have a point.at the moment you have a biases opinion which you read somewhere that fits your veiw of the world. Oil access.Total proven oil reserves for the area are 335 million barrels, all in Croatia, Yugoslavia, and Albania. http://www.eia.doe.gov/cabs/balkans.html no more needs to be said about this other than if an area was worth capturing and installing a puppet government,It aint Kosovo.Once again Malriat falls over breaking some teeth as he does so. Mineral resourses.Once again not a warfighting amount is there?Apart from coal.Coal! Right!THE most cost effective mineral to ship to the "new Masters "of kosovo,accross the Atlantic.They would really be Quids in eh? The USA and UK are having to spend hundreds of millions to repair the country from a decade of war.Financially it was a disaster.Politically and Moraly it was a victory for us and them. Nato Strategic expansion?To be honest Malriat on this point you may be right.I dunno.You cant prove that this was the reason..i cant prove it wasnt.It all comes down to what you want to beleive.I dont doubt that on occasins like ANY government there is not just one agenda.But to say that The west WANTED the war without being able to offer any substansive Proof,and winging about ultimatums. What would your reaction have been if NATO had done nothing.the Kosovars would now be all displaced to Albania or theiy would have died.Returning Kosovars after the war found Serb familys had moved in from serbia proper into their homes. no doubt you would have been posting"US bastards..why did you let the Kosovars down? sorry to give you such a total pasting,but your too smug when smugness has no place in a Bigot. Toodle Pip!

You put a foot on the ring, then jump out of it and claim victory...There is a try, but you addressed less than half of the points contained in my original message. Thought I would not notice the elephant in the corridor or what? As for the other ones, you just evaded them... Summary: "Kosovo is not interesting because it is a poor country". That is a bit SHORT, kid. I backed up my arguments with hard data, and even US sources (not "hard" data to me, but to you...). I will post again the points you eluded. Answer them: -Kosovo alone has the richest mineral resources in all of Europe west of Russia. -"A number of unofficial partition plans have been drawn up for Kosovo all raising the question of who would control an important northern mining region," the New York Times revealed. -Since the bombing has ended, numerous US bases in the Balkans have been set up. A military base is being built in Kosovo, described as the largest US foreign base built since the Vietnam War. "Behind the propaganda of a humanitarian war, U.S./NATO bases have been constructed in Albania, Croatia, Bosnia, Hungary, Macedonia, and Kosovo. The Balkans, a region of enormous strategic importance, rich natural resources and important industrial capacity is now occupied by thousands of US troops. All this has happened without any informed debate or discussion." -- Sara Flounders, Censored 2000, (Seven Stories, 2000) p. 44 -We have all been told that before the bombing began, all the diplomatic efforts did not yield any silver linings. What has not been mentioned in much detail is that Milosevic in fact did suggest that he would consider a UN or other, non-NATO force, but for the US, this was not the silver-lining that the US wanted. -Furthermore, with the bombing of Serbia being mainly destruction of civilian infrastructure (not military, I insist), we see this pattern throughout history that Smith has also detailed of plundering the "periphery" by destroying their means of production and crippling their economic capabilities preventing future development and being dependent upon the conquerors -A leaked version of the Pentagon's 1994-1999 Defense Planning Guidance report advises that the United States "must seek to prevent the emergence of European-only security arrangements which would undermine NATO. Therefore, it is of fundamental importance to preserve NATO as the primary instrument of Western defense and security, as well as the channel for U.S. influence and participation in European security affairs.". This is setting a pretty serious precedent -- even though perhaps there may have been better options available, the US did not want to consider them, because it wanted to have a (leading) role in Europe's security affairs and keep Europe dependent on it. Malrait

concerning this 'Arms Sales' issue, tommy, your comment about the KLA receiving 'CIS' orientated doctrine and equipment is totally erroneous. Firstly, the KLA was/is a total hodgepodge and isn't 'trained' at all, especially not in any Former Soviet sense. Secondly, the KLA is equipped with lots of different weapons. No tanks and only extremely light artillery though (82mm and 120mm mortars, both of Soviet origin but with copies of ammo and weapons produced EVERYWHERE). I remember seeing a KLA soldier with a WW2-era German MP-40 SMG, and others with old Soviet SKS carbines (Chinese copies), and of course the ubiquitious AK-47. However, it is the mistake of a layman to think that just because an army uses the AK, the Russians must've given it to them. China builds more inferior AK copies than anyone else, and Albania was supplied overwhelmingly by China, not the USSR. I won't comment on anything else, just that. Oh, except that how do you explain the ultimatum given to the Yugoslavs that they must accept NATO occupation of the entire country, with free reign?

Love the new name! When i said CIS Equipment,I actually meant CIS,China,Hungary,Czeck,Etc..Etc,If you have any basic knowlage of the military you use "Russian kit" to mean any satillite nation and "western" to mean mainly American stuff. This last gasp at critisism is a bit like me saying "thats an apple" and you saying"AHHHAAH!Now I have you! Its actually a "Golden Delicious" and ive got the sources to prove it HTTP://Socialistfruit.com/Killyanks/imperialistplot. The Fact remains that Their Weapons Come From The East and not the west which is the whole point of the arguement.Obviously your "hard facts"that the war was WANTED because of arms sales are just a crock and you havnt got a single "fact" to back you up.(as usual). How do I explain the ultimatum? I have read appendix B and it is a harsh set of instructions.When you look at the history of what the Serbs had done prior to Rambullet the negotiations they had rejected which were much more leniant.The constant Delaying tactics and Obscuration.Back this with the 94 and 95 history of complete disregard for International Law,including shooting dozens of UN peacekeepers.Rambullet appears to be the only answer that would stop the Genocide.The Serbs obviously claim they were fighting a war against terrorists,and indeed the KLA were responsible for enough atrocitys of their own.The serbs could have fought a fairly clean counter insurgency campaign against them ,but it suited the needs of the"greater Serbia"to clense their soil of Muslims. In summery,in a perfect world Rambullet shouldnt have been nessecery. The UN should have seen what was happening,the Security Council met,A rapid decision to condem and insist the Ethnic cleansing to stop,A deadline given,and immediatly after this Military action led by the UN with a Multinational force should have moved in to provide "safe havens"(which the Serbs would have shelled). The UN works slowly and to be honest too ineffectively.Rambulliet saved the Muslims of Kosovo,(quickly forgotten by the Muslims of many nations since),from a fate that I have witnessed. Was It Illegal under International law?Probably. I would be interested,as i think has been previously mentioned ,why is a devout socialist and defender of the meek like yourself has jumped on Slobbys Nationalistic bandwagon?Purely because It was a US led campaign that freed the Kosovas? Apart from that There is now no point you raised which I havnt covered either by totally Discrediting It or by saying fair-nuff. However i am having deep doubts about my sexuality since you questioned my Manlyness. Do you ever have doubts that you are indeed a complete Spanner?