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Submarines Discussion Board
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Subject: Next major technological breakthru in Submarine warfare
fall out    4/13/2004 10:57:09 PM
What do you think that it will be? It can be a breakthru in ASW capabilities or much better submarine's. What are your thoughts?

Cheers,

Fall Out
 
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friend2all    RE:Next major technological breakthru in Submarine warfare   4/13/2004 11:00:14 PM
What are the conductive properties of seawater? Perhaps something along the electromagnetic field path?
 
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Roman    RE:Next major technological breakthru in Submarine warfare   4/14/2004 12:14:42 AM
I think it will be in advancing sensors... eg. using refraction of light to locate submarines, etc. Also important, IMO, will be all-electric drives for nuclear submarines that will allow power to be used more flexibly. But I am not a submariner, so take my ideas on this with a grain of salt...
 
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   RE:Next major technological breakthru in Submarine warfare   4/14/2004 2:47:09 AM
Supercavitating submarines would rewrite the rules of underwater combat overnight. Imagine a vessel you could see with ease (silence is not an issue with these birds), but that no modern torpedo could possibly touch. link
 
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gf0012-aust    Cavitation subs   4/14/2004 2:54:44 AM
hmmmm, disagree here... If you look at the progress of RAMICs then there is an awful long way to go before supercavs can be used in a self propelled solution. You are basically looking at a need to redefine the propulsion system - before you even address the issue of submarine shape etc.. If the USN hadn't stuffed up the RAMICs IP issue and had the original inventor on board, then maybe, they would have made some progress. As it is, its not working effectively on some weapons let alone on weapons systems that are manned and internally complex.
 
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fall out    extreme ranged radar/torpedo   4/14/2004 5:50:16 AM
what do you think? a sub that has a strong enough radar or sonar that is able to detect targets, at least surface one's, from a long distance; longer than what the surface assets can 'see', and also have torpedo's that have that sort of range too, plus an increased speed as you dont want to give the enemy too long to react.
 
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   RE:extreme ranged radar/torpedo   4/14/2004 7:38:24 AM
An extended range torpedo would be a futile concept; as is, the modern Mk48s weigh several tonnes, a great amound of that dedicated to propulsion, and they can still only reach 50-60 MPH. The technology your thinking of already exists on Virginia and the Improved LA, via vertical launch tubes for Harpoon anti-ship missiles..
 
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Gray    RE:extreme ranged radar/torpedo   4/14/2004 4:16:26 PM
...and radars can be more powerful, able to track smaller targets / more targets etc etc but maximum range will always be decided by the height above water and the height of the target due to the earth's curved surface. At least, until someone invents some way of consistent radar refraction / reflection using the atmosphere!
 
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fall out    RE:extreme ranged radar/torpedo   4/14/2004 7:49:27 PM
hey mate, we've already done that, im sure that many other 'subsideries' will come about from this that could be applied to differing platforms. btw, im talking about the JORN radar (jindalee over the horizon; it uses the ionosphere to bounce off and pick up targets and has a massive range, we can see all of indonesia with this and most agree that this range is very conservative). ;)
 
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gf0012-aust    extreme ranged radar/torpedo - fall out   4/14/2004 8:21:22 PM
JORN has a declared range of 3000+k's - which is considered to be very conservative in light of some of the anecdotal intercepts done to date. The problem with all OTH systems is a degree of range unpredictability due to the nature of the technology and mother nature. The ionosphere is a fickle mistress and can result in dramatic changes in depth. The advantage of JORN and all the other goodies that come under the aegis of Operation Dundee (which is what the US is part of) is the integration into other Australian DIGO assets and the US with its equivalents. The US has bought into participation with JORN and its Dundee "sisters" as it fills some previously big holes in its ISR systems in the region. But, OTH is not perfect.
 
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AMTP10E    RE:extreme ranged radar/torpedo   4/15/2004 9:16:10 AM
>>The technology your thinking of already exists on Virginia and the Improved LA, via vertical launch tubes for Harpoon anti-ship missiles. *-*-*-*-* For a submariner, Harpoon is the weapon of last resort. A Harpoon launch leaves a clearly visible smoke trail which my bugmariner friends (yeah, I'm a skimmer) call "The Finger of Death". It points right to a sub's location.
 
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northernguy    RE:extreme ranged radar/torpedo..fallout   4/15/2004 11:55:44 PM
fallout asks what are possible areas of breakthrough whether in terms of capability or design of the sub itself. It depends on what you mean by by "breakthrough". Using out of phase, but frequency, volume and tone matched tones to cancel out the ping of active sonars as currently being experimented with would probably be called a breakthrough if it can be made effective wrt to timing. If a sub can defeat all active sonars then it's threat level increases to the point that it becomes a strategically entirely different weapon. All current anti-sub weapon systems would have to be redefined. That would be called a breakthrough even though it really is a refinement of existing technology. Most improvements in technology some of which have already been mentioned in this thread, are not really breakthroughs. More powerful sonars, supercavitation etc. are just advances that are just a change in performance often accompanied by a penalty that outweighs any advantage. There is a different class of breakthrough that is fundamental. Just like the early crude radars gave an overwhelming advantage to forces that possessed it when going into conflict with units that not only didn't have it but didn't even know it existed. Such capabilities are true breakthroughs. The sole owner of fission weapons rules until everyone else catches up. If they go on to fusion weapons they rule again until their opponents get their own. There are four fundamental forces in nature. They are electro-manetic, gravity, strong and weak nuclear forces. Electro-magnetic detection and control is very mature and seems unlikely to reveal any major undiscovered properties that radically change our understanding of the force. Because we live in a gravity well it seems unlikely that we would be able to detect tiny gravity field distortions caused by something as small as a ship or a sub. (at least in the forseeable future) Our understanding of the strong nuclear force is pretty crude with control being mostly a matter of breaking the force in such a manner as to blow things up really big. Detection ability is absurdly limited. However we can at least imagine charged particle weapons systems. Some kind of beam type weapon system that could peel a surface ship open like can opener from miles away would probably be much appreciated by a sub commander even if it did carry some weight penalty or whatever. The weak nuclear force offers the most likely prospect of a breakthrough in the full sense of the word. Our understanding of the weak force is so limited that we have no clear conception of what its purpose is. We certainly have incredibly limited detection capacity. My personal view is that its like infrared was a hundred years ago. Then scientists knew that the infrared portion of the electro-magnetic scale existed because they could see it through certain types of glass. Beyond that they had no idea what it was or how it could be used. Now that we have better detection methods we know that it is all around us. Under the right circumstances, with the right detector it is a better target locator than either the optical or radar portions of the electro-magnetic scale. If the weak nuclear force is "weak" only because of our limited ability to detect it, then it provides the most exciting possibility of the true breakthrough in detection of distant objects through otherwise obstructive material. However the real and current breakthroughs are being achieved in field of materials through the use of nanotechnology and quantum mechanics. Northernguy
 
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gf0012-aust    extreme ranged radar/torpedo - AMTP10E    4/16/2004 12:04:00 AM
Slightly Off Topic, an excellent book on a nuke submariners life is: "Rig Ship for Ultra Quiet" by Andrew Karam. Real operator telling a real story. ISBN 0 9578709 7 3 and - it's printed in Oz - Shannon Books in Melb. You should be able to get a copy at Angus and Robertson. last time I was in Melb there was a copy avail in Swanston St.
 
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leoatwork    RE:extreme ranged radar/torpedo - AMTP10E    4/16/2004 3:42:31 PM
UUVs allow you to disperse and extend the range of your sonar, plus they can go active and then transmit the data back to you without you giving away your location. That's a pretty revolutionary change. I would imagine that in the future, you will see everything being treated like a carrier battle group; subs won't go out by themselves, they'll travel in dispersed packs with a bunch of UUVs forming a perimeter around a manned sub.
 
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northernguy    RE:extreme ranged radar/torpedo - AMTP10E ..leoatwork..   4/18/2004 6:23:44 PM
I like the idea of a sub accompanied by a squadron of UUVs. I just haven't been able to figure out how the sub communicates with it's escorts. If the UUVs are tethered, that's a severe limitation on distance and flexibility. If they aren't but are preprogrammed or something, then they have to be pretty cheap and replacable and thus limited. You don't want your UUVs giving of powerful pings when they are close to you as this simply reveals your position to your opponent. If they do their pinging far away from you they have to communicate the results to you in real time. I'm not clear how all this would work. Northernguy
 
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friend2all    RE:extreme ranged radar/torpedo - AMTP10E ..leoatwork..   4/18/2004 7:26:42 PM
Boy, lot's of ideas come to mind, but I don't like giving bad guys ideas or maybe inadvertantly mentioning something that's already deployed or being worked on. This tends to be a pretty sensitive area.
 
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