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Submarines Discussion Board
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Subject: An alternitive to nuclear fisson, and other new trends
skating2salvation    11/21/2006 5:13:48 AM
I heard it from the BBC (yep, a 22yr old yank is addicted to it ;-) that an international consortium based in France is dedicated to the firm plan of developing nulcear FUSION, as opposed to the current process of fission. From what I could glean, rather than splitting atoms as is the current method, fusion binds hydrogen atoms at 10x the heat of the sun's core(mimicing the sun's amazing nuclear process). It is said 10 grams of 'heavy hydrogen' is equal to 10,000,000 grams of oil or coal. I was wondering, could this be our next great naval power source? Another benifit to this process is the total lack of nuclear byproduct that is plauging the soviets, and everyone else who has nuclear power producing operations. Step aside hydrogen fuel cell? With a greater infrastructure of powerlines and plants, maybe the thought of the electric car is back in the spotlight, if we can ever find a hyper efficient storage device. A quick question as an aside, again from a nieve perspective, is can a mini-sub be an effective inland threat deterrent? I thought maybe a country open to attack from rivers,canals, and ports/bays could operate a mini-sub fleet to break blockades and/or down enemy incursion craft, surely not equipped to detect her. A 50ft craft, 3/4 man crew, high-end commercial sonar/radar,a photonics mast, and simple wire guided gps enabled small torpedoes was what I was thinking. Anyway, hope all is well, S2S
 
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skating2salvation       11/21/2006 5:17:38 AM
   I just have NO idea the feasability of coverting the reactor tech to such a scaled down format, surely the heat production alone would take alot of material.
 
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skating2salvation       11/21/2006 5:28:46 AM
    Hey, really sorry (just hate starting a new thread to pose such basic questions givin the caliber of ppl on here), but it's been something I've wondered about for awhile. When a new class of sub is launched, the electronics suit is I would assume equipped with the best processing capabilty of the day. However, does the electronics package develope alongside the mechanical tech? It would almost seem a givin some projection would be needed so a design will be as current as possible. Granted, everyone else has the same problems, refits erase it (but it's years in between them) , and each new sub of class is equipped with the cutting edge, but when the seawolf put to sea technology was FAR from as good as today. Does the modular design of, say, the Virginia make it open to quick upgrades? Thanks again, S2S
 
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skating2salvation       11/21/2006 6:09:53 AM
   Ok, ANOTHER thought (pls disregard the mini-sub thing, an old pipe dream) is using uuv's as either torpedo launchers or countermeasures. If a uuv can position itself in a tajectory differing from the manned sub, then deploy an asw weapon it would give it's 'mother' sub running silent an out. Or divert a combatant's sonar operator from the smaller signiture of the larger sub, if acting as a countermeasure, shooting random active sonar, displaying a high magnetic signiture, making some simular noise signiture or the larger sub, what have you. Though mimicing something with tons of submerged displacemeant and a nuclear reactor wouldn't be any small task. Jw
 
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Wiz    Nuclear fusion ships and submarines   2/17/2007 3:49:08 PM
Nuclear fusion plants will provide less disaster than from nuclear fission, and more convenience of nuclear waste with less half life of nuclear decay if my memory is correct. While nuclear fusion may have advantages of saftey of nuclear fission, I am not sure about comparison of power output. If my memory is correct, the ITER nuclear fusion plant was to be 50MW. If these fusion reactors were to be installed on aircraft carriers, submarines, battle ships or any other naval ships, compactness will also be an issue.
 
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scuttlebut steve    not on ships   2/17/2007 9:04:33 PM
   fusion may one day be able to provide power for the world, but if the eventual working design is based on any of the test reactors either in operation or on the drawing board, they will be too big for use on naval ships or other mobile platforms.  fission reactors provide warships with a lot of power but take up little space.  the next big nuclear power revolution in ships will probably be ways to reduce the size of the secondary plant (massive steam/condensate systems that power the turbines that power the ship), probably using an advanced form of thermovoltaic or thermophotovoltaic components that produce electricity based on temperature differential accross them.  I know that one of lockheed's shipbuilding subsidary companies has been working on that for a while.
 
   I know that a system like that would allow the aft engineering spaces on a nuclear submarine to be reduced in size by 50%, as the majority of those spaces are filled with secondary steam/condensate systems, condensers, turbines, and the mechanical drivetrain.  besides reducing the cost of the ship and reducing maintenance downtime and cost, that could result in 1)-more room on a ship for other stuff, or 2)-ships with the same shaft horsepower and combat capability with reduced size--SPEED INCREASED
 
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Herald1234       2/17/2007 9:39:39 PM

I heard it from the BBC (yep, a 22yr old yank is addicted to it ;-) that an international consortium based in France is dedicated to the firm plan of developing nulcear FUSION, as opposed to the current process of fission. From what I could glean, rather than splitting atoms as is the current method, fusion binds hydrogen atoms at 10x the heat of the sun's core(mimicing the sun's amazing nuclear process). It is said 10 grams of 'heavy hydrogen' is equal to 10,000,000 grams of oil or coal. I was wondering, could this be our next great naval power source? Another benifit to this process is the total lack of nuclear byproduct that is plauging the soviets, and everyone else who has nuclear power producing operations. Step aside hydrogen fuel cell? With a greater infrastructure of powerlines and plants, maybe the thought of the electric car is back in the spotlight, if we can ever find a hyper efficient storage device. A quick question as an aside, again from a nieve perspective, is can a mini-sub be an effective inland threat deterrent? I thought maybe a country open to attack from rivers,canals, and ports/bays could operate a mini-sub fleet to break blockades and/or down enemy incursion craft, surely not equipped to detect her. A 50ft craft, 3/4 man crew, high-end commercial sonar/radar,a photonics mast, and simple wire guided gps enabled small torpedoes was what I was thinking. Anyway, hope all is well, S2S
1. The project5 is called ITER

h*tp://www.iter.org/

2. It will be HUGE about the size of a small particle accelerator [CERN].
3. It will need a large neutron trap. The current guess is a lithium lined concrete and shell that will be two meters thick. That jacket will be dangerously radioactive. No waste byproduct?  Don't make me laugh.

The possibility of building a boron cycle fusion reactor is much more realistic and provided it works out;
h*tp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aneutronic_fusion
h*tp://www.focusfusion.org/

No it is not as crackpot as it sounds. The boron cycle is valid.

Herald
 
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