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Subject: China expands sub fleet
Softwar    3/2/2007 9:21:55 AM
"http://www.washingtontimes.com/national/20070302-012440-4462r.htm"

China expands sub fleet
By Bill Gertz
THE WASHINGTON TIMES
March 2, 2007

China's military is engaged in a major buildup of submarines that includes five new strategic nuclear-missile boats and several advanced nuclear-powered attack submarines, according to the Office of Naval Intelligence.
The new nuclear-powered missile submarines (SSBNs), identified as Type 094s, will be outfitted with new 5,000-mile range JL-2 missiles that "will provide China with a modern and robust sea-based nuclear deterrent force," the ONI stated in report made up of written answers to questions on the Chinese submarine buildup.
The ONI report was first disclosed to Sea Power magazine, and a copy was obtained by The Washington Times. It was the first time the Pentagon has identified the number of new Chinese strategic submarines under construction.
The five new missile submarines will "provide more redundancy and capacity for a near-continuous at-sea SSBN presence," the ONI said, which noted that sea trials for some of the submarines are under way and the first deployments could begin as early as next year.
The buildup is raising new concerns among senior Pentagon planners already worried by Beijing's broader strategic nuclear-forces buildup, which also includes several new long-range land-based nuclear missiles and a land-attack cruise missile similar to the Tomahawk.
"This is a troubling development," Richard Fisher, a specialist on the Chinese military with the private International Assessment and Strategy Center, said of the submarine buildup.
The five missile submarines, each equipped with 12 JL-2 missiles, shows that China is working to achieve a force of 120 long-range nuclear missiles over the next decade, about half of them to be carried on the submarines, Mr. Fisher said. The other half would be the 60 land-based DF-31 missiles that current deployment rates will give China by then, he said.
The 120 missiles also could have multiple-warheads, since China is known to have acquired all the needed technology from the U.S. during the 1990s.
Retired Vice Adm. Michael McConnell, commenting at a Senate Armed Services Committee hearing on Tuesday, said China's nuclear missiles pose a threat.
"It's a matter of they're building their military, in my view, to reach some state of parity with the United States," said Mr. McConnell, the new director of national intelligence. "So they're a threat today, they would become an increasing threat over time."
Little is known about China's nuclear forces and efforts by Pentagon officials to engage Chinese military leaders about their strategic weapons and forces has not been successful. China's government has insisted its current modernization is part of a peaceful development, but the contrasting strategic nuclear-forces buildup is worrying, defense officials said.
Chinese Gen. Zhu Chenghu told reporters in 2005 that China would attack U.S. cities with nuclear weapons in response to any conventionally armed U.S. missile strikes against China during a conflict over Taiwan. Years earlier, Gen. Xiong Guangkai threatened to use nuclear weapons against Los Angeles if the U.S. helped Taiwan defend against a Chinese invasion of the island.
The missile-submarine buildup would provide Beijing with a major upgrade on current capabilities. In 1983, China built one Xia-class nuclear-powered ballistic missile submarine, reportedly with 12 1,000-mile range JL-1 missiles. But that solitary submarine has only twice test-fired its missiles and never ventured beyond China's regional waters.
"Although the range of the JL-1 limits the Xia's utility as a deterrent platform, targets throughout the region, including U.S. military facilities, could be targeted with the JL-1 from launch points inside traditional Chinese navy operating areas," the ONI said.
On China's new attack submarine, the ONI stated that China already has launched and is performing sea trials on an unspecified number of Type 093 nuclear-powered attack submarines. Published reports in China have said two Type 093 attack submarines are deployed and use "foreign technologies" and advanced anti-ship missiles and torpedoes.
The new advances are part of China's efforts to bolster its anti-ship weapons to permit strikes at greater ranges from the Chinese coast than its current diesel-powered submarine force offers, the ONI said. China currently is upgrading its current force of about 55 attack submarines -- most of them easy-to-track diesel boats -- with more-advanced and harder-to-track vessels, including Russian-made Kilos, and its own Song- and Yuan-class submarines.
"Each of these submarine classes, which are quiet platforms with anti-ship cruise missiles, is an integral part of China's regional anti-access strategy," ONI said. "The quieting incorporated into these submarines is required for successful operations in the open ocean operating areas which could facilitate the [Chinese navy's] wartime mission of keeping enemy combatants outside of strike range of the theater of operation."
A Song-class submarine surfaced undetected within five miles, well within firing range, of the aircraft carrier USS Kitty Hawk in October.
The ONI stated that China's maritime strategy is focused on blocking U.S. or Japanese intervention in a future conflict over Taiwan. To that end, Beijing has begun equipping its medium- and short-range ballistic missiles based on shore, hundreds of which are deployed across the Taiwan Strait from the island that the communist regime views as a renegade province, with maneuvering warheads.
These radar-guided or heat-seeking weapons "provide the accuracy necessary to attack a ship at sea," ONI said.
But China's rise in international trade and commerce, plus its growing dependence on imported foreign oil, also has expanded Beijing's maritime strategy from a mostly submarine force to one of building surface ships to "defend sea lines of communication" (SLOCs), because protecting sea-lanes with submarines is difficult.
ONI also said that in addition to new destroyers, "by 2020, China is likely to operate an aircraft carrier, the initial unit of which may be the refurbished ex-Varyag, acquired from Ukraine in 2000, to further support SLOC protection."
 
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Francois       3/2/2007 10:13:47 AM
Instead of thinking expending their fleet, they better learn to use what they have, and spend their money in well painted floating casino!
 
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RockyMTNClimber    Watch The Japanese   3/2/2007 12:00:29 PM
If the Japanese become convinced that their sea power advantage over China is tilting away I look for them to make a deal with the USN (like the Brits did) to build a SSN based upon one of their SSK designs and a small USN design nuclear power plant.
 
A Japanese SSN would be at least one generation farther advanced over anything the Chicoms could field. With a covey of Chicom SSBN's running around I wouldn't be suprised to see Japan complete the Nuclear Cycle themselves.
 
Check Six
 
Rocky
 
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Nanheyangrouchuan       3/2/2007 12:32:56 PM
Now its just a question of finding out which country the PLAN stole/bought enough SSBN secrets from.
I wouldn't be surprised if they had some plans and hardware from old pre-Ohio US boomers.

 
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Softwar       3/2/2007 12:37:24 PM
I agree that Japan will react to a PLAN SSBN boat - perhaps by going nuke.
 
I think the PLAN Type 94 is supposed to be based on the Russian Delta class boats.
 
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RockyMTNClimber       3/2/2007 1:11:29 PM

I agree that Japan will react to a PLAN SSBN boat - perhaps by going nuke.

 

I think the PLAN Type 94 is supposed to be based on the Russian Delta class boats.


The Japanese are quite capable Submariners. They would be a impressive counter force to PLAN SSN/SSBN.
Check Six
 
Rocky
 
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YelliChink       3/3/2007 2:41:39 PM

If the Japanese become convinced that their sea power advantage over China is tilting away I look for them to make a deal with the USN (like the Brits did) to build a SSN based upon one of their SSK designs and a small USN design nuclear power plant.
A Japanese SSN would be at least one generation farther advanced over anything the Chicoms could field. With a covey of Chicom SSBN's running around I wouldn't be suprised to see Japan complete the Nuclear Cycle themselves.
Check Six 

Rocky

There is a Japanese comics (or Manga) which describes similar scenario: The Silent Service.
However, that comic was published in late 1980s when the US public was really pissed off by Japanese trade surplus, and, hence, expressed some anti-American sentiment that was common among Japanese in response to trade and political disputes between Japan and the US.

 
Quote    Reply

RockyMTNClimber    Yelli    3/3/2007 3:13:44 PM




If the Japanese become convinced that their sea power advantage over China is tilting away I look for them to make a deal with the USN (like the Brits did) to build a SSN based upon one of their SSK designs and a small USN design nuclear power plant.

A Japanese SSN would be at least one generation farther advanced over anything the Chicoms could field. With a covey of Chicom SSBN's running around I wouldn't be suprised to see Japan complete the Nuclear Cycle themselves.

Check Six 



Rocky



There is a Japanese comics (or Manga) which describes similar scenario: The Silent Service.

However, that comic was published in late 1980s when the US public was really pissed off by Japanese trade surplus, and, hence, expressed some anti-American sentiment that was common among Japanese in response to trade and political disputes between Japan and the US.



Sino-Japanese-US situation has changed allot. I have no reservations about them being able to counter China's Navy. Every Japanese SSN means one less US SSN to gaurd the Japanese homeland and her lines of communication.
 
Check Six
 
Rocky 
 
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scuttlebut steve    FU PLN   3/3/2007 11:07:05 PM
given that chinese diesel boats arent all that bad and the few nuclear subs they have are really crappy, this is kind of good news (compared to them just buying a butload of russian diesels).  Those Hans and Xia's are absolute POS's, and I doubt that their new model nukes will be that much better.  Also, getting a Song SSK five miles from a carrier in wartime is a little harder than in peacetime.
 
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mithradates    One for the good guys!   3/4/2007 2:58:01 AM
This is very good news.  Word is that there are now 3 093 SSNs and 2 094 SSBNs in the water.  And apparently the JL-2 has been tested!!!!


Now each 094 has 18 JL-2s and each JL-2 can carry 4 warheads.  So that's 72 warheads per boomer.  It is a good feeling to know that we can VAPORIZE certain so called "civilizations" in about 20 minutes.

 
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gf0012-aust       3/4/2007 3:05:10 AM

This is very good news.  Word is that there are now 3 093 SSNs and
2 094 SSBNs in the water.  And apparently the JL-2 has been
tested!!!!





Now each 094 has 18 JL-2s and each JL-2 can carry 4 warheads.  So
that's 72 warheads per boomer.  It is a good feeling to know that
we can VAPORIZE certain so called "civilizations" in about 20 minutes.



LOL, you obviously have no idea how loud your nukes are.  They're nicknamed "Kenwoods" for very good reason.

a little basic comprehension of how navies actually deploy and fight in wartime would serve you well.  as for your unbridled enthusiasm at thinking that you now have a first rate respondent navy - what a joke. 

when you learn to drive these things in a non benign environment, then you might get some attention.

and plse don't raise throw pacrim taxi runs as evidence of driver competence







 
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mithradates       3/4/2007 3:12:39 AM
You have no idea how fast we can turn out these SSBNs.  I have read 5 type 094 SSBNs in the water by 2009 in PLAN magazines.  Now while it's true, that these arent as quiet as a Seawolf, it should however have the acoustic signature of an early Los Angelas Class Nuke sub. 

And quite frankly, it ONLY takes 1 boomer to wipe out a country like the U.S. 

 
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gf0012-aust       3/4/2007 3:17:29 AM

You have no idea how fast we can turn out these SSBNs.  I have
read 5 type 094 SSBNs in the water by 2009 in PLAN magazines.  Now
while it's true, that these arent as quiet as a Seawolf, it should
however have the acoustic signature of an early Los Angelas Class Nuke
sub. 



And quite frankly, it ONLY takes 1 boomer to wipe out a country like the U.S. 



when you can actually demonstrate some knowledge of what is involved with subwarfare - I might actually start to pay attention to some of your jingoistic replies.

However, the stellar lack of comprehension on your part of whats required isn't encouraging.  I think I might be better placed to have a clue - as opposed to some enthusiastic internet surfing comment.

Quite frankly, its rather distressing to come back after 10 days and still see the same old tiresome sino-nationalism prancing about.

Kenwoods indeed.....

still, you keep on thinking that you're a tier one player - it just makes it all so much easier. 
 
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mithradates       3/4/2007 3:28:45 AM



You have no idea how fast we can turn out these SSBNs.  I have

read 5 type 094 SSBNs in the water by 2009 in PLAN magazines.  Now

while it's true, that these arent as quiet as a Seawolf, it should

however have the acoustic signature of an early Los Angelas Class Nuke

sub. 





And quite frankly, it ONLY takes 1 boomer to wipe out a country like the U.S. 





when you can actually demonstrate some knowledge of what is involved with subwarfare - I might actually start to pay attention to some of your jingoistic replies.

However, the stellar lack of comprehension on your part of whats required isn't encouraging.  I think I might be better placed to have a clue - as opposed to some enthusiastic internet surfing comment.

Quite frankly, its rather distressing to come back after 10 days and still see the same old tiresome sino-nationalism prancing about.

Kenwoods indeed.....

still, you keep on thinking that you're a tier one player - it just makes it all so much easier. 

In truth, you have no idea just how trackable these SSNBs really are.  What you have are the acoustic signatures of old Type 091s.  Are the 094s trackable, certainly.  Can you ENSURE that each one that we have in the water is being tracked right now?  Maybe right now when there are 2.  What happens when we have 5? , 10, 20?  All operating near or within the litoral zone?   What happens when you take into account the type 093s ALL can fire N-tipped HN3s?  Are you going to keep track of those too?  How about those 091s, I'm sure you're aware that they can ALSO have N-tipped SLACMs now right?  Are you going to track them too?

No one is claiming to be an expert at submarine warfare here.  And I'm very clear that the PLAN is not a tier one navy, it doesn't NEED to be.  And the discussion isn't about that.  The point here is that, can u track EVERY single nuke sub with nuke delivery capability at ALL times?  Would you be able to do so 5 years from now?  Because a single nuke equipped SSN of ours can wipe out a good portion of the U.S East or West coast.  A single SSBN can wipe out the United States.  If you cannot ENSURE that NO PLAN SSN/SSBN gets through during wartime, then the purpose of our Nuke sub fleet has been acheived.  And that purpose is DETERRRENCE.


 
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gf0012-aust       3/4/2007 3:42:43 AM


Nice speech.  When you get to the same level of competency as the Singaporeans, Sth Koreans or Japanese (and that isn't going to happen for a loooooong time) - then there will be something to worry about.



 
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mithradates       3/4/2007 3:46:28 AM
Then don't worry.  As long as the U.S doesn't try to play nuclear blackmail on us like they did in the 1950s, everyone will play nice :)
 
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