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Subject: Questions about the Astute submarine.
Asymmetric    9/1/2007 9:24:54 PM
I’ve being reading a fair bit about the RN’s future and its new purchases, type 45’s, CVF’s, Astutes, etc…From what I gather from RN submarine buffs the Astute is best warship to come from a European defence manufacture in decades (although many seem to be more enamoured by not having to share a bunk space). Will the Astute be able to do exactly as BAE advertise i.e. is it “the stealthiest submarine ever produced”? Will the Astute’s ability to assist ground forces with tactical tomahawks prove an effective investment? If you were only going to have one class of SSN is the Astute the top of the bunch? i.e. how do they compare to a Virginia, Sea wolf or a Barracuda? How would Astute’s fair against completely hypothetical enemies such as a USN carrier group, a Russian task force or French fleet based around the Charles de Gaulle? I realise that much of the data on these SSN are classified but I would still like to hear what people think about the Astute, since it already seems to have won so much approval
 
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nominoe       9/2/2007 4:37:52 AM
I don't know how Astute compares with the Seawolf, but we can assume these are the two best attack submarines in the world (nuclear or not). With the quality of british crews, and this new submarine class, i can't think of a more deadly submarine force.

Cruise missiles are a necessity in modern conflicts. Trafalgar already had this capability, and the new spanish submarines will also launch tomahawks. Of course, in the case of the spanish, the capability is barely more than pushing the button when the US tell them to do so.  The use of tomahawks will be restricted to operations with the US. I think that the UK can use tomahawk in a more independant way, but i don't know exactly.

h*tp://www.corlobe.tk/article5168.html (in french sorry)

About the Barracudas, we don't know much yet. We can assume that they will be very good submarines, with the french experience acquired with Triomphant SSBN (which are top notch and very quiet)  and scorpene (very good SSK).
Barracuda will be equiped with independant cruise missiles (SCALP naval). They will be smaller ship (5100 t dived), the size of a trafalgar. I think that France needs those ships badly, as Amethystes are becoming old and lack the cruise missiles capability. Barracudas will probably be less capable than astute (smaller, less payload) but i hope they will be of equal noise level and use an efficient combat system.
 
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gf0012-aust       9/2/2007 5:04:33 AM
 
well, at Asymmetric's prodding ;).  I'm a fan of the Astutes. I don't hink much more detail needs to be said. 
 
Its about tech and training..... that combo is going to make for a lot of hurt for any enemy...
 
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Asymmetric       9/2/2007 7:55:54 AM

 

well, at Asymmetric's prodding ;).  I'm a fan of the Astutes. I don't hink much more detail needs to be said. 
 

Its about tech and training..... that combo is going to make for a lot of hurt for any enemy...




Heh, just had to make sure they met your approval

I just can’t help asking myself “where’s the catch, there must be something wrong with them?” but no one seems to have bad word to say. Occasionally the question of cost comes up but they seem to justify that over there long life span as well. I would still like to see a cost comparison between Astutes and Barracudas just to see how they compare.

 
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french stratege    Cost comparison   9/2/2007 9:36:38 AM
 
I would still like to see a cost comparison between Astutes and Barracudas just to see how they compare.
Development costs and production of the first three boats has been budgeted at 3.5 billion pounds ($6.5 billion).   It had been anticipated that an order for a further three Astute class submarines would be placed in late 2002 at an estimated cost is £1.7bn (FS: 2002 PRICE) , but this order has now been delayed indefinitely and their cost will be re-assessed.  However, some long lead time items for the fourth Astute had been been ordered by mid-2004 to help sustain the industrial base. 
Assuming that first batch is 20% more expensive for first sub in marginal production price, then 10% for the next 2 than average price of second batch at probably 600 m£ each (normal learning curve)
In January 2001 the MoD stated that the cost of each of the first three boats would be around £745m. (in the same article)
On 19 February 2003 it was announced that in the face of disastrous cost overruns that the government had agreed to increase its funding to BAE Systems by around £430m, while BAE would also  contribute (or rather write-off) £250m. 
Any cost overruns above the Target Cost will be shared by the customer and the company, up to the maximum level established for the company by the agreement.  Including government supplied equipment (e.g. sonars and the Tomahawk control system), the out-turn cost of the first three A's now seems set to reach £4 billion.
So a 1,75 B£ R&D cost with overrun
Average unit price is about 700 m£
In PPP 1 £ is roughly equal to 1,5 €
So 2,6 B€ for R&D and 1050 m€ per sub
 
For Barrracuda, we have a 7,9 B€ program for 6 subs
ht*p://www.meretmarine.com/article.cfm?id=103408
h*tp://www.seaandnavy.com/article.cfm?id=103415&motcherche=Barracuda%20
Each sub is said at 950 m€ per sub and 2200 m€ for R&D knowing that almost an additional B€  have been already spended on preliminary design and tech including reactor mock up.Also Barracuda benefit of technologies of Terrible SSBN to be launched in 2009 (building today) which is much more recent than its UK SSBN counterparts.
So quite similar for R&D (while more on french but we do not benefit of US help) and each french sub must be roughly 10% cheaper to build
It is why french subs are smaller to spare on hull size.Indeed systems, acoustic signature management, reactor, integration are the main price in a SSN.
So we can deduce that acoustic signature, sonar, depth will be at least similar or better (more recent than Astute) as economy of price are put on speed (lighly less) and weapon number (24 weapons max if tubes already loaded at departure including a 20 reserve for Barracuda instead of 36) to get a smaller hull and save money.
 
For the cruise missile capabiltiy it is a plus for SSN but emphasis is put on that by navies to justify costly SSN post cold war.
It is indeed a marginal capability (while usefull in some scenarii).
Air force or aircraft carrier fighters can deliver also cruise missiles.
SSN is stealth but it is dangerous to risk a SSN to launch cruise missiles.And risking a SSN for few dozen cruise missiles is quite a risky non cost effective business.It makes sense only to make a surprise attack on leadership or very important items like ballisitic missiles or AWACs or some top of line fighter on ground or warship in harbor.
The main weapon of a SSN is still torpedoes, then antiship then cruise missiles.
 
 
 
 
 
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french stratege       9/2/2007 9:50:20 AM
Our new SSN program launch have been delayed by 5 years (Chirac is an @sshole!) after a initial delay of 5 years by former government so Ametyste class will have a new major upgrade to make them last until Barracuda class is completed.
Ametyste will receive new improvement in signature management with a new pump jet as major item and new sonars and battle management system.Cost will be likely about a billion € for 4 subs.
 
Barracuda will be 5300 tons dived.
First delivery end of 2015/beginning 2016 then one each two year.
Initally it was 2006 then 2011, then one each 1,5 year.
Delay was to fund M51 and second aircraft carrier and 17 FREMMs.
 
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french stratege       9/2/2007 9:55:08 AM
Indeed Chirac has spared 8  € in procurement by delaying second carrier, Barracuda, cancelling second Horizon batch and delaying Rafale.His successors have to pay for his mismanagement.
 
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nominoe    public informations   9/2/2007 9:57:31 AM
Im' a big fan of submarines, although i am no expert. I did a little homework felle free to bring better informations!!

ASTUTE CLASS SSN

http://www.meretmarine.com/objets/500/1423.jpg">

Displacement : 7000 - 7800 t
Lenght : 97m x 11,3 m.
Max speed : 32 knots
Crew : 98, 12 officiers
6 torpedoes tubes : Spearfish, SubHarpoon, Tomahawk (1700 km mach 0,7 ; 318kg warhead).
Payload : 38 torpedoes/missiles
Radar : type 1007 for navigation
Sonar : type 2076, 2077, 2081, 2082, 2015
C. System : SMCS, link 11 link 16

Astute combat system is the SMCS, and main sonar is type 2076 already used in Trafalgars. It uses the Excellent Spearfish torpedoe, subHarpoon antiship missile and tomahawk tactical cruise missile.

BARRACUDA CLASS SSN

http://www.meretmarine.com/objets/500/1989.jpg">

Displacement : 4765 - 5297 t
Lenght : .99,5 x 8,8
Max speed :  >25 knots
Crew : 60, 8 officiers
4 torpedoes tubes : heavy torpedoe IF 21 "blackshark", MU90. SM-39 Block 3 Exocet, SCALP NAVAL (1000 km mach 0,9)
Payload : 20 torpedoes/missiles
Radar : ? navigation
Sonar : ?
C. System : SYCOBS

Barracuda uses the SYCOBS combat system, already fitted in "Le Terrible" (last triomphant class SSBN). Few is known about the sonars. Barracuda is designed to have a reduced crew, less than amethyste class, with a high degree of automatisation. It will be armed with the future blackshark torpedoe, the excellent french antiship Exocet block 3 missile, and the cruise missile SCALP naval, which will have a 1000 km range (less than Tomahawk).

-------------------------------------

These two submarines will have (once barracuda is launched) equivalent requirements :

- Nuclear propulsion for unlimited autonomy
- Cruise missiles for deep strikes
- Torpedoes
- Antiship missiles
- Ability to operate commandos and special forces, and to conduct spying missions.

Nuclear propulsion and cruise missiles are the most important points for me, and give these ships an equivalent "diplomatic" value, which is to say "we can strike anything, anywhere, being unpunished, so don't mess with us".

British and French SSN comparison is very much like British and french SSBN : The Astute operates british and americans weapons, whearas the Barracuda operates French made weapons. French weapons have (in the case of SCALP naval like in the case of ballistic missiles) a smaller range, but still can get the job done, and don't rely on US will.

Nothing is known about their respective noise level, or sensor suite effectivness, we can only assume that these two submarines will be world class and enough to kill any diesel boat snorkeling around. French and British both have a long record of building excellent submarines, the most moderns being : Trafalgar, Vanguard, Triomphant, Scorpène/marlin.

As a conclusion, these two ships are designed for the same requirements, the British being bigger, more costly, with a bigger payload (38 vs 20 weapons). We will probably not know which is the quieter or which have the best sensor suite until 20 or 30 years, but one thing is sure :  these ships are  expected to work with each other, and to fight only in exercises. Save the US, the country which will face a mix of astutes and barracudas will be in serious trouble.
 
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