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Subject: New Russian Patrol Sub packs a puch...
DarthAmerica    12/5/2007 3:24:49 PM
I recently learned of a new Russian submarine that will hit the export market sometime next year(?). No big deal right? Well I also read that it has 10 verticle launch tubes in additional to the usual torpedo tubes. Now, I'm no sub expert but isn't this a major increase in firepower for a diesel patrol sub? Laying in wait nearly silent and probably undetected, 10 cruise missiles suddenly racing in below the radar horizon would be quite a threat for most surface ships. Especially if they werent at the highest state of alert. I'd be curious to know what those of you who have more knowledge of subs thinks of this. The Sub I'm talking about is called the Amur 1650 or Project 677. From what I learned through open sources about its weapons. It has 6 torpedo tubes with 16 to 20 weapons and 10 verticle launch tubes behind the sail. Seem like this sub is packing the punch of a small destroyer. What say you? -DA
 
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earlm    DLS on Subs   12/5/2007 11:49:25 PM
They're suicide weapons.  If you penetrate a task group and fire, the signature of firing will lead the escorts to you.  Especially if you fire a missile.  The signature is right there on IR, vis, and sonar.  The only way missiles make sense for subs is if they have offboard targeting info.  Western subs have dropped Harpoon and TASM.  I get the real feeling that the US and UK subs are there to sink other subs and beat up on wimps like Argentina.  I really don't see a sub getting away after launching a missile or even a torpedo.  I'm sure there are tactics but I doubt they work well against a competent foe who has choppers.
 
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RockyMTNClimber    interesting capability   12/6/2007 11:44:35 AM
The concept is interesting. Note their fire power is exactly the volume of a Los Angeles Class (12 VLS+4 horizontal tubes v. 6 horizontal +10 VLS). The ability to run solely on internal submerged power for 500 km is scarey. Almost nukish. Cheap too. Half a dozen of these supporting action in the Taiwan straights or Straight of Hormuz would allow the first strike capabilty against the allied navies that the enemy needs to start action.
 
I'd love to see analysis of a USN Arliegh Burke v. one of these.
 
Check Six
 
Rocky
 
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Ehran       12/6/2007 11:58:37 AM
had a friend in the canadian navy and he said that it was pretty thin odds of getting away after putting torps into a carrier.  figured you could nibble on the escorts though with a fairly good chance of escaping retribution.
 
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Herald1234       12/6/2007 12:11:17 PM
A Russian D/E improved Kilo with either a Klub or a Yakhont derivative loadout?
 
Too small, too noisey, too slow with fair to poor weapons.
 
The real threat is a French AIP boat with decent long range passive acoustic guided electric torpedoes that terminal guides into you as wake homers. THAT is scarey, and that would be a sub that could sneak attack you with a fair to good chance of both hitting you and escaping. 
 
Herald
 
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RockyMTNClimber    What if?   12/6/2007 12:18:24 PM

A Russian D/E improved Kilo with either a Klub or a Yakhont derivative loadout?

 

Too small, too noisey, too slow with fair to poor weapons.

 

The real threat is a French AIP boat with decent long range passive acoustic guided electric torpedoes that terminal guides into you as wake homers. THAT is scarey, and that would be a sub that could sneak attack you with a fair to good chance of both hitting you and escaping. 

 

Herald



Say the Russians agree to fit out their Armur to your spec.. I.e. we put those lovely western torps & exocets and systems into it for you. You think the hull and systems are to loud to compete?
 
Check Six
 
Rocky
 
 
 
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DarthAmerica       12/6/2007 4:28:05 PM

The concept is interesting. Note their fire power is exactly the volume of a Los Angeles Class (12 VLS+4 horizontal tubes v. 6 horizontal +10 VLS). The ability to run solely on internal submerged power for 500 km is scarey. Almost nukish. Cheap too. Half a dozen of these supporting action in the Taiwan straights or Straight of Hormuz would allow the first strike capabilty against the allied navies that the enemy needs to start action.
 
I'd love to see analysis of a USN Arliegh Burke v. one of these.
 
Check Six
 
Rocky

I agree and to me it seems quite dangerous. I also don't agree with those who think its all but sure that the offending sub will be caught. I think there are strategies and techniques the sub skipper can use to maximize his chances of escape and if used properly they could work.
I know that most military surface ships are always at various levels of combat readiness. They can't be looking at every square km of ocean all the time. There are also environmental factors that can aid a concealled attack. If you had a skilled sub skipper fire off 10 or more AShM at one of your ships and they managed to get the timing right those missiles could arrive by surprise. Even if they were detected at the last minute it would literally be the last minute at the speeds we are talking about. Again because of the potential for surprise this would be a formidable attack against any ship IMHO.
 
-DA 

 
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DarthAmerica       12/6/2007 4:37:59 PM
Another thing. It could just be one sub too. With such a salvo capability if it had access to offboard targeting data it could deal a painful blow. Most ships in littorals arent big Carrier Strike Groups and they dont all have AWACs and AAW Destroyer cover.
 
-DA
 
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kensohaski       12/9/2007 7:59:14 AM
IMO this is another piece of cheap commie junk. 
 
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BLUIE006       12/9/2007 8:00:44 AM
Dangerous for Australia if they get into the hands of northern neighbors ... 
 
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DarthAmerica       12/9/2007 1:14:24 PM

IMO this is another piece of cheap commie junk. 



Thats a very sweeping statement about a modern platform where little data exist in the public domain originating from a very experienced manufacturer.
 
-DA
 
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