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Subject: The Torpedo Wolfpack/Torpedo VLS
HeavyD    5/4/2012 7:57:43 PM
I am intrigued by the coordinated pack-attack strategy programmed into some Russian Anti-Ship Missiles. Has a similar strategy been evaluated for torpedo attacks? Especially against high-value targets like carriers. For massed firepower subs could be converted from the limitations of the 100 year old tube launch technology in favor of 'vertical launch cells' that can hold torpedoes as well as cruise, anti-aircraft and and anti-ship missiles and mines. Instead of being limited to six or so shots and lengthy, laborious re-loading a VLS boat could ripple-fire it's entire payload in rapid succession. Something that would be wise for an enemy sub to do if in range of a CBG: ripple 30 fish and a dozen decoys, make a helluva lot of racket and confusion while you try to slink away... How would a Carrier Battle Group deal with 30 simultaneous in-bound fish? Or 60?
 
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WarNerd       5/14/2012 1:17:37 AM
I am intrigued by the coordinated pack-attack strategy programmed into some Russian Anti-Ship Missiles. Has a similar strategy been evaluated for torpedo attacks? Especially against high-value targets like carriers.
 
For massed firepower subs could be converted from the limitations of the 100 year old tube launch technology in favor of 'vertical launch cells' that can hold torpedoes as well as cruise, anti-aircraft and and anti-ship missiles and mines. Instead of being limited to six or so shots and lengthy, laborious re-loading a VLS boat could ripple-fire it's entire payload in rapid succession. Something that would be wise for an enemy sub to do if in range of a CBG: ripple 30 fish and a dozen decoys, make a helluva lot of racket and confusion while you try to slink away...
 
How would a Carrier Battle Group deal with 30 simultaneous in-bound fish? Or 60?
What is the point of it? There are currently no hard kill systems for intercepting a torpedo attack (yet) that need to be saturated. There are however decoys and other electronic countermeasures.
 
Then there is the problem of the sheer size of the weapons. A Mk.48 torpedo is 19 feet long, which is more than the external diameter of most non-nuclear submarines. So these vertical torpedo launchers will be restricted to nukes only unless you are willing to give up the size and cost advantage for conventional submarines.
 
The next problem with torpedoes is their low speed relative to the targets they are trying to intercept makes short range systems, typically less than 10 miles in a tail chase for a 30 knot target. You can fire from farther out if you can keep the enemy from detecting the attack until the torpedo is closer, but a ‘ripple launch’ vastly increases the likelihood of early detection. It is very likely that every other ASW helicopter will be on top of your position in minutes, not enough time to start a proper evasion.
 
Then you have the problem that some of the torpedoes will mask the target from the sensors on the rest of the torpedoes. Not a major problem until you have to cut the guidance wires from the sub, but a big problem once the wires are cut. And you cannot ‘slink away’ without cutting the wires.
 
Finally there is the fratricide. When a torpedo detonates if other torpedoes are too close their sensors will be deafened. Even if no torpedoes are directly damaged directly the explosion will generate a disturbance in the water that no sound can penetrate, causing other torpedoes on the same or nearby targets to lose their target lock until they penetrate the disturbance, and then have to reacquire the target, presenting the target with lots of opportunities to play tricks.
 
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LB       5/15/2012 12:10:38 AM
You can't launch torpedoes at the same time.  You need a few seconds to trim the boat after firing.  Torpedoes can't just be left in external tubes as they require periodic maintenance.  Subs have 4 to 8 tubes but some also have VLS for missiles.  Firing two dozen or more torpedoes would be overkill.  If the sub gets within range to fire 4 to 8 modern torpedoes will the job quite nicely.  The point is this isn't a known requirement.  If it were subs would have more tubes.  Subs used to have to a 2nd torpedo room with 2 to 4 rearward facing tubes.  There are reasons that's not done any longer.
 
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Reactive       5/18/2012 9:41:15 PM
Exactly ^^ 
 
Masking a ship's signature with a soft-kill jammer is reliable because you only have to mimic a known acoustic signature to obscure the original, as a last resort you also have the option of deafening sensory systems altogether. 
 
Even jamming active sonar is relatively trivial, compared with radar for example - it's a much slower omnidirectional medium with a comparatively narrow bandwidth and energy spectrum with far more sensitivity to being deafened. It says something that soft-kill systems have been deemed adequate to date - the main point being that for torpedoes (and thus their sub's life expectancy) stealth is most important - for the target the emphasis is on detecting inbound as early as possible in order to facilitate jamming and for this reason (and the others mentioned) a massive salvo makes little sense except as a suicide mission for the sub. 
 
 
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