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Subject: France Creates SAMs or Subs
SYSOP    11/9/2012 5:23:21 AM
 
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WinsettZ       11/9/2012 2:46:15 PM
I wonder if it would be possible to design a retractable mast with a Stinger launcher on the top. 
 
Detect enemy helicopter. Send mast up, deploy Stinger, fire at target.
 
More expensively, one could design anti-air missiles to be launched from special mini-VLS, or even quad pack to a VLS tube or torpedo casing...but it would only really make sense if fighting large quantities of airpower.
 
The other possibility might be a tethered platform that uncoils and floats to the surface, deploys a Stinger that is controlled from the sub? 
 
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RtWingCon    admission of failure?   11/9/2012 7:09:26 PM
Is the development of these systems an admission the diesel boats aren't as super stealthy as advertised? Or are the Navy's ASW capabilities better at detecting diesels than we're lead to believe?
 
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WarNerd       11/10/2012 3:44:35 AM
I am not going back though my notes to get links for you, just google them yourself.
I wonder if it would be possible to design a retractable mast with a Stinger launcher on the top.
 
Detect enemy helicopter. Send mast up, deploy Stinger, fire at target.
Several have been developed, none deployed. The first one I recall used the Blowpipe missile, not the Stinger (or maybe it was still the Redeye back then?) to give better head on engagment.
More expensively, one could design anti-air missiles to be launched from special mini-VLS, or even quad pack to a VLS tube or torpedo casing...but it would only really make sense if fighting large quantities of airpower.
There is a vertical launch system out there, but it takes a larger missile. You need extra fuel to generate a column of bubbles that the missile that passes up through the water through.
The other possibility might be a tethered platform that uncoils and floats to the surface, deploys a Stinger that is controlled from the sub? 
That is basically what the IDAS is, just the missile is more capable than a Stinger.
 
The Stinger is too short ranged to stop a helicopter lining up to drop an 12” ASW torpedo these days.
 
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WarNerd       11/10/2012 3:58:08 AM
Is the development of these systems an admission the diesel boats aren't as super stealthy as advertised? Or are the Navy's ASW capabilities better at detecting diesels than we're lead to believe?
And someone finally point out the obvious.
 
Diesel boats are only stealthy as long as they can run on batteries. They are slightly less stealthy using a mechanical AIP system (one of the so called AIP equipped subs just has really bbiigg batteries banks), but that only adds a couple days at very low speed to their capabilities. Eventually they all have to snort, even if it is just to make speed between the port and the patrol zone, at which point they are suddenly a LOT less stealthy and very vulnerable.
 
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American God       11/10/2012 4:59:00 PM
Would it be possible to create a small swim-out system, with a diameter of 17 to 19 inches, to deploy a Sidewinder-type missile from torpedo tubes? This would allow the sub to deploy the missile without compromising its position with air bubbles, and could allow the missile to actually launch at some small distance from the sub, making counter-attack more difficult if the missile does not get a kill.
 
 
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WarNerd       11/11/2012 5:37:03 AM
Would it be possible to create a small swim-out system, with a diameter of 17 to 19 inches, to deploy a Sidewinder-type missile from torpedo tubes? This would allow the sub to deploy the missile without compromising its position with air bubbles, and could allow the missile to actually launch at some small distance from the sub, making counter-attack more difficult if the missile does not get a kill.
Very tricky, and it would probably need to be the size of a heavy weight torpedo due to constraints on the separation and launch of the missile. A better system might be for the missile container to be neutrally buoyant and remain at depth until the sub moves to a safe distance, then drop the weights to rise quickly to the surface and launch.
 
Sidewinder, or any self-guided missile is actually a poor choice for these systems because you are firing without a lock-on. The IDAS system http://www.diehl.com/fileadmin... gets around this by using a fiber-optic system to guide the missile to acquisition.
 
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American God       11/11/2012 11:42:53 AM
Actually the newest block II AIM-9X Sidewinders do have a LOAL (Lock-on After Launch) mode, for carriage inside the bays on the new stealth fighters. I'd expect with a cueing system - probably wire-guided - to give them an initial heading, they should be effective.
 
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vahitkanig       11/11/2012 4:12:46 PM
IDAS  is the  first  missile developed to  shoot air  target  when  sub under water.
I dont  think submarine will attack helicopter or planes ,because its not valuable  target cost of detection of her  place.
Submarines is a  problem  for aircraft carrier due to her sealth and evasion capability,and  vulnerability of  air craft  carrier.
May be floating  platform  for  jet  tuged by  escorting ships  or  by moving fuel  storage of carrier will be next  step  for carriers  future to  make her less vulnerable to
 
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Sty0pa       11/12/2012 10:10:07 AM
This is actually a pretty nasty concept, as the anti-sub planes/helicopters have historically assumed immunity to attack from their prey.
 
Personally, I agree with the torp-tube launched system, presumably as a sort of captor-system.  I can easily see a sub 'dropping' a system like this quietly out of one of the rear tubes, where it would silently ascend (fast, or slow, depending on how programmed), and maybe even dwell only a meter subsurface or so with perhaps a simple radio aerial abovewater.  On detection of any sort of search radar, it bobs to the surface, acquires, and fires a brace of SAMs at the ASW aircraft.
 
For that matter, I presume there is research ongoing into 'stealth' geometries particularly effective vs ASW sonars; considering this thing doesn't have to move but simply bob in place, it could be really optimally designed for stealth.
 
Looks like ASW planes can no longer just be low, slow, and patient. 
 
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WinsettZ       11/12/2012 4:36:01 PM
Didn't realize subs still had rear tubes...
 
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