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Subject: Fatal Miscalculation
SYSOP    6/23/2013 7:25:20 AM
 
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vahitkanig       6/23/2013 12:16:08 PM
Future  sub warfare ;  small AIP  boats and remote  control  undersea cruse  missiles
 
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marat,jean       6/23/2013 1:40:30 PM
An American firm (Electric Boat) has been hired to help implement this modification, which will delay delivery of the first S-80 sub about two years (to 2017). The modification will increase the costhttp://images.intellitxt.com/ast/adTypes/icon1.png" style="padding-top:0px!important;padding-right:0px!important;padding-bottom:0px!important;padding-left:4px!important;margin-top:0px!important;margin-right:0px!important;margin-bottom:0px!important;margin-left:0px!important;vertical-align:baseline!important" alt="" /> of the sub about five percent and make the S-80s roomier. That will help crew morale although the taxpayers are none too pleased with this screw up. .
 
First the British, and then the Germans, then the Canadians, then the Australians, and now the Spanish. (The French are next, there is a problem with the ballast tanks in the Pakistan boats ordered.) When a nation screws up their submarine design who do they call to save them?
 
The Americans... WHY?
 
Electric Boat is legendary.
================================================
 
Not so about AIP boats. Too small, too slow, too short enduranced, too hot, and not enough POWER.  
Future  sub warfare ;  small AIP  boats and remote  control  undersea cruse  missiles

 
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American God       6/23/2013 2:33:53 PM
AIP is better than a diesel boat with no AIP. But nothing offers performance like a nuke boat. If a  nation can afford it - and I know it isn't cheap, both for equipment and personnel training - nuke boats are always your best option.
 
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donstrock       6/23/2013 7:40:32 PM


Nukes are not always your best option; they are the highest performance option and most expensive.  
 
Spain will have different mission requirements and a smaller budget than the USA or the FSU.  AIP boats will work wonderfully for them.   
 
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Tomcat21    Too true   6/24/2013 12:20:00 AM
When Australia chose their last class of submarines, the Collins class, the govt. of the day went with the 3rd best design that allowed them to buy votes (able to build them in South Australia), not the best design. Therefore, it became a total stuff up with the boats hardly ever being fully combat ready or even seaworthy.
 
We are looking at new boats now and I dread to think what they will end up like if our govt. follows the same pattern. Hopefully a change to a conservative govt. will buy weapons that work. I wonder if they are even looking at Virgina class boats?
 
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marat,jean       6/24/2013 7:42:50 AM
The question is what can Australia afford and what does that country need?
 
France, a comparable country (wealthier but not by much) and with a similar problem of vast ocean patrol coverage, but with seriously different hydrography problems, (the Mediterranean may topologically resemble the cluttered Indonesia and Southwest Pacific Archipelago clusters, but there are serious sound and depth differences between Australia's likely Pacific operation areas (shallow and surface ducts) and France's combat patrol areas in the eastern Atlantic. (deep and with much current confusion that causes the generation of migratory ducting that is never the same month to month.). France adopted a mixed force of diesel electrics for shallow work, and nuclear boats for deep ocean combat. 
 
Australia could use diesel electrics to work its defense issues quite well, just not SWEDISH ones (Kockums? Seriously, why would anybody hire them after the Vastergotlands?). Suggested type sources are Japan, Germany, Holland, or the United States. Even France is a very good source (rather excellent submarine builders despite the error with the Pakistani boats-See -80 bungle above for a similar mistake.). Just stay away from the British, Koreans, and the Swedes. They are INCOMPETENT submarine builders.      
 
 

When Australia chose their last class of submarines, the Collins class, the govt. of the day went with the 3rd best design that allowed them to buy votes (able to build them in South Australia), not the best design. Therefore, it became a total stuff up with the boats hardly ever being fully combat ready or even seaworthy.

 

We are looking at new boats now and I dread to think what they will end up like if our govt. follows the same pattern. Hopefully a change to a conservative govt. will buy weapons that work. I wonder if they are even looking at Virgina class boats?

 
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Chris       6/24/2013 9:38:25 AM
While a nuke boat might give you power and range, it doesn't give you the same level of utter *silence* that AIP gives you in the littorals.  An AIP boat is essentially a hole in the water - and in the majority of war games where Collins and other NATO boats (AIP) have locked horns, the US nuke boats have more often than not come out second best.
 
Hence - the reason for the return of active sonar for ASW. 
 
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marat,jean       6/24/2013 10:48:29 AM
That is wrong.
 
A Stirling engine makes much noise and HEAT. It is easily detected. Moreso than a properly shielded and silenced steam turbine, which is what a naval nuclear power plant is.   
 
The AIP boat must stay on the battery or it DIES. The nuclear boat has the advantage of time and sensor power. It can wait for the noise and detect the heat. 
 
Your assertions apply to submarines and surface ships, not sub versus sub.  
 
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MHalblaub    AIP is not only Sterling engine   6/24/2013 12:37:27 PM

AIP is also possible with fuel cells like on German Type 212/214/Dolpin submarines. The only moving parts are the small pumps to deliver the fuel.

A nuclear reactor can't be shut down immediately. Reactors need cooling pumps all the time pushing a huge amount of water through the submarine.

Here is something to read: http://seefahrer.blog.de/2013/04/11/manoevertagebuch-westlant-deployment-07-08-15746059/ (You can switch to English on top right)              

Or http://seefahrer.blog.de/2013/04/24/manoevertagebuch-westlant-deployment-u-32-15-20-15785812/

From that maneuver I conclude German Type 212 u-boats are quieter than US “Los Angeles”-class submarines.

 
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MHalblaub    AIP is not only Sterling engine   6/24/2013 12:57:12 PM

AIP is also possible with fuel cells like on German Type 212/214/Dolpin submarines. The only moving parts are the small pumps to deliver the fuel.

A nuclear reactor can't be shut down immediately. Reactors need cooling pumps all the time pushing a huge amount of water through the submarine.

Here is something to read: http://seefahrer.blog.de/2013/04/11/manoevertagebuch-westlant-deployment-07-08-15746059/ (You can switch to English on top right)              

Or http://seefahrer.blog.de/2013/04/24/manoevertagebuch-westlant-deployment-u-32-15-20-15785812/

From that maneuver I conclude German Type 212 u-boats are quieter than US “Los Angeles”-class submarines.

 
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