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Subject: Penalize Putin and His Culpable Kremlin
SYSOP    7/24/2014 1:21:00 AM
 
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Batou    Isolationism:The New Black   7/24/2014 4:59:06 AM
My apologizes to for paraphrasing their article -
 
 
Russia and Putin did not order the firing of the BUK missile.
 
BUT as Austin's article points out - they provided the tools to do the deed.
 
However, I feel that Putin - being the trained KGB Officer he is, will be angling to create conditions most benefical conditions for The Party and maybe even Russia itself....
 
IF the USA and the EU pursue a "Treaty of Versailles" set of economic sanctions against Mother Russia - Putin will, in effect, draw upon the same set of social conditions pre-WWII Germany faced and use the same affected population and mind-set as Hilter did. In effect, he is creating his own Russian "Jihadists" as a tool of war against the West.
 
 
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2468       7/24/2014 10:04:13 AM
"Ultimate responsibility for the massacre of the 298 people aboard Malaysian Airlines Flight MH17 begins and ends in the Kremlin office of Russian president Vladimir Putin."
 
This is a joke, right?
 
FACT: A airline company tried to save money and fuel by continuing to fly over an active war zone with ground to air missiles being fire and planes being shot down.  
 
Predictable result: a civilian airliner is shot down.
 
Who is at fault: The airline company. They had the responsibility to ensure their passenger's safety, even if they had to pay for another $200 in fuel (less than a dollar per body) to fly around a combat zone. 
 
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bombard       7/24/2014 12:34:31 PM

 

 

It is never predictable for a civilian airliner to be shot down. To suggest otherwise suggests naivety or worse.

When an airliner is shot down, the blame lies with the people who shot it down not the passengers or airline.  MH17 was on a busy air corridor, possibly one of the busiest in the world. It was not a lone aircraft in a hostile area, dozens of aircraft used that corridor every single day.

Personally, I think the Ukrainians should ask for two Polish Army Leopard 2 Brigades secure the borders, cutting off insurgency from resupply and allowing the national army to reoccupy the rebel area.  The Poles are mobilised ot the extent of recalling reservists, and have their wagons at train yards on the border already. Let them off.

 

 
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WarNerd       7/24/2014 1:05:45 PM
I don’t think you paraphrased at all. Perhaps you meant to link to a different article.
However, I feel that Putin - being the trained KGB Officer he is, will be angling to create conditions most benefical conditions for The Party and maybe even Russia itself....
I think that Putin started out thinking that way, but then got enamored by his ‘ability to manipulate the situation’ and suddenly discovered it was beyond his control, even before the shoot-down threw all his calculations out the window. At the moment everything is about covering up the evidence and damage control, which just keeps making things worse as one lie after another gets exposed. In fact the best move would have been to have the people at the missile battery come forward immediately and say “Oops, sorry.”, and provide complete cooperation with the crash investigation. It would still be a black eye, but no cover up to keep it in the news and feed conspiracy theories.
IF the USA and the EU pursue a "Treaty of Versailles" set of economic sanctions against Mother Russia - Putin will, in effect, draw upon the same set of social conditions pre-WWII Germany faced and use the same affected population and mind-set as Hilter did. In effect, he is creating his own Russian "Jihadists" as a tool of war against the West.
How are current sanctions and policies like a “Treaty of Versailles”?
 
Outside of sanctions against individuals (and most, especially the one against Putin, will only be honored in the breech) the rest are just western leaders trying to lay claim economic trends brought on by Russian itself with its lack of the rule-of-law, corruption, and attempts to use its exports as economic weapons.
 
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CJH    This Is Really Bizarre   7/24/2014 11:22:13 PM
This downing of a civilian jetliner defies understanding doesn't it?<p>
 Why on earth would Putin do something so counterproductive to his apparent purposes as to order this? Or why would he put the ability to derange his plans into the hands of those he might well consider to be his useful idiots?<p>
Is Putin that stupid? <p>
Did pro-Russian Donetskies just decide to see what would happen if they shot this plane down?<p>
Did they somehow mistake this airliner for a cargo or a military flight?<p>
Is Putin in damage control mode? 
 <p>
Then there is the fact that this is the 2nd Malaysian  airliner at the center of a disaster investigation.<p>
What really happened to that other jet?<p>
 
 
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bombard       7/25/2014 3:35:19 AM

The militia men were trained to shoot the SAM, but didn't have the command and control center that would have informed the battery that their target was emitting IFF as a civilian aircraft. 

 

 

 No one said  that Putin ordered rebels to down a jet:  It is clear from the transcripts that the rebels thought they had downed a transport- and their panic when they realised what they had done is also clear.

 

 

 It is also clear that the SAM system, and more importantly the training to fire it, maintain it and operate it was provided for by Russia. Once the debacle was made clear, the battery returned to Russia.

 

 

 It is clear that Russian provided the rebels in a sovereign nation with a SAM system, in addition to ‘volunteers’ from Chechnya, armoured vehicles, and fire support. This is illegal.

 

 

 MH370 had nothing to do with what we are discussing.

 

 

 
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CJH    This Is Really Bizarre   7/25/2014 10:19:50 PM
This downing of a civilian jetliner defies understanding doesn't it?<p>
 Why on earth would Putin do something so counterproductive to his apparent purposes as to order this? Or why would he put the ability to derange his plans into the hands of those he might well consider to be his useful idiots?<p>
Is Putin that stupid? <p>
Did pro-Russian Donetskies just decide to see what would happen if they shot this plane down?<p>
Did they somehow mistake this airliner for a cargo or a military flight?<p>
Is Putin in damage control mode? 
 <p>
Then there is the fact that this is the 2nd Malaysian  airliner at the center of a disaster investigation.<p>
What really happened to that other jet?<p>
 
 
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CJH    This Is Really Bizarre   7/25/2014 10:26:04 PM
Commercial airliners are not carrying surveillance gear for intelligence agencies are they?
I suppose that if they did no one would advertise it.
And one would expect that satellites would suffice for surveillance work. 
 
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Tucci78    Gazprom, the War on Carbon (Dioxide) and Odippity   7/25/2014 10:26:08 PM
The Russian state monopoly on natural gas (methane) and liquid petrochemicals is the major cash cow for Putin's nomenklatura, and has been for decades.  This is the real source of cohesion among the governing kleoptocracy in the old Soviet rump.  It is therefore the proper target for any economic sanctions aimed at bringing the neoSoviets under some kind of discipline in their resurgent imperialism. 
 
But we're faced with a problem, and that's the commitment of our nominal President (our Indonesian-in-Chief, and where the hell is his green card, anyway?) to the utterly fraudulent cause of "man-made global climate change" by way of industrialized civilization...er, "carbon pollution," the trace anthropogenic increase in a trace atmospheric component which can theoretically figure in some too-insignificant-to-measure fashion as a greenhouse gas.  Maybe.  What "science" he's got on his side is about what you'd expect of an ex-Poly Sci major who got a boatload of affirmative action goosing him along. 
 
There is zero doubt right now that liquified natural gas (LNG) from U.S. fields can get to European ports at costs a helluva lot lower than the "take-or-pay" rates fixed by Gazprom for their extortionately set prices.  American producers can cut the nutsac right out from under Putin and his cronies tomorrow if only Putin's ever-so-"flexible" good buddy farting his own personal methane into that comfy chair behind the Resolute desk will get his Luddite EPA and other bureaucracies to hellangone out of the way.
 
So how come nobody's squeezing that specific and particular comedo until it greasily pops?  
 
 
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CJH       7/26/2014 9:39:08 PM
"The militia men were trained to shoot the SAM, but didn't have the command and control center that would have informed the battery that their target was emitting IFF as a civilian aircraft."

What you say sounds reasonable if you got your info from reliable sources.

But the above still illustrates why this seems so bizarre to me. The Russians reportedly sent SU-25s to Iraq along with even Russian pilots to fly them. Russians under the USSR were characterized by complete top-down command control.

But here they turn over operational control of a SAM system to people whose trustworthiness, skill and experience had apparently not been a matter of their concern.

Go figure!

 
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