I am glad to read that you have found my posts funny but I am having difficulty to understand how you came up with an idea that I am ultra nationalist. I proudly declare that I am a nationalist and I love my country as most of the other forumers can say about themselves.When you add ''Ultra'' to nationalist it seems that you are accusing me of being a fanatic. I would like to make it clear that I believe the equality of all races and although I happen to be a Turk and proud of it , that does not mean that I refer to other races and nations as lesser beings. And for your information PARS, I have read Metal Storm and I believe it is fun to read but it lacks most of the facts which are needed in such a novel. I do not take it as a guide book. I really believe that Turkey and USA will cross swords in the future for some very serious reasons.But this is for another topic to discuss. Demir Bukulmez

I am sorry Demirturk if I was too judgemental. It comes from your "Everybody else hates Turks. We are alone by ourselves in this world" kind of attitude. And especially from the fact that you took that crap book of "Metal Storm" so seriously. The fact is USA never need to attack Turkey. We are so much financially in dept to them that they can easily crush our economy anytime they want. You could have seen it in near past events. Anytime our parliament passed a decision US government did not like, we had an economic crise. Every year I am spending one month at USA. Very few heavily doctrinated culturalist "all Muslims are evil" kind of Americans hate Turkey. The great majority are fine people who are open and nice to all kind of men. Do not let some people in this mailing list confuse you.

"Turkey may not be accepted into EU because of high population, high birth rate, high unemployment. By the way to your knowledge Clausewitz, education level in Turkey is as high as every other last 10 entrance into EU. And much higher than educational level of Turks that live in Germany. That says something about politics of Germany not about Turkey." -- Is that true?... how do you you explain that?... maybe is that because of the low-paid jobs that are actually open in Germay and consequently attract the least educated (I know it happens with Indians in Gulf)? BTW: I must apologize to you, and thought that Turkey site is the best place to do that... about the "Comming to your town soon" article on the US site, they try to be too smart for anyone's good. For me its better to err on the safe side than on believing that half the population is somehow immune to Jihadist preachings, or that even if they were immune they wouldnt be subject to same human cruelty as all of us do.... especially when history shows otherwise. And if I have made any bad remarks on Turks, its on the eastern Turks and obviously nothing on the people of modern day Turkey. Its just that Muslim trouble-makers in India take a perverse pride in tracing their ancestry back to Turkic invaders, and consequently point to Indian weakness in history. It drives us nuts, and when we make generalizations on Turks its more likely about them than you.

-- Is that true?... how do you you explain that?... maybe is that because of the low-paid jobs that are actually open in Germay and consequently attract the least educated (I know it happens with Indians in Gulf)? That was true for the first generation that went to Germany. But 2nd generation and 3rd generation Turks lives in Germany are generally critise that the emigrator families do not have the same educational oppurtunies as the Germans. No matter how good their grades are the not only Turkish but Serb and Greek students are directed to technical schools not Univercities. So for many intelligent Turks computer programming or trade are the only real career oppurtunities as none of these needs University degree. Germans generally says that they proplems with emigrators but they generally fail to notice that USA, UK and Australia also got many emigrators from Turkey or in general Balkans but they did not have these proplems. I think main reason is in these countries there are equal oppurtunities for education and job for every citizen emigrator or not. But in Germany they do not. So a 2nd Generation Turk in USA feels himself as an American, or in Australia an Australian but that is not the case in Germany. If there were really a cultural issue the others will have the same problem. In fact I have met several 2nd Generation American Turks. They did not even know Turkish language. Other than their names it was impossible to know that they are Turk.

Well. I guess you do not really know the problems of the turkish community here in Germany. Back in the seventies we hired many unskilled labor out of Turkey because this kind of work needed to be done. Today this kind of work is done by machines and many Germans just want the now unneeded turkish working poor back to Turkey (we got our own working poor). We did not attract skilled educated turks. Skilled and educated turks did not migrate to Germany in big numbers. Turks in Germany get the same chances in schools as anyone else. But their parents did not socialize them as needed. They speak turkish among themselves. They read turkish nespapers and listen to turkish radio. They marry young turkish girls out of turkey because they dislike turkish girls born in Germany. German born turkish girls are not devout enough. And we have many turkish girls stabbed to death by muslim fanatics - usally out of their familiy - for unislamic behavior. The turks in the second and third generation are even more nationalistic than the turks of the first generation. It is a question of numbers. In the US you have not whole neighborhoods of turks. So you can assimilate them in one generation. But you can't even assimilate christian mexicans if they live together in spanish speaking quarters. I admit that turks are hard working (if they have work), proud and honest people. But if you take "the wrong" subway here in Berlin you will meet a bunch of noisy, uneducated people with golden chains and expensive watches. So most Germans want them back in Turkey where they should ask for social benefits. Same for other european countries. Most of us Europeans just do not want to live together with muslims (just take a look to the dutch people). And we got enough - welcomed - migrants from eastern Europe. They are not only hard working but skilled too. And they are Christians we will assimilate in one generation. So I assume that it is better for both Europe and Turkey if Turkey will not join the EU. We both would not threaten our identity. And there is no reason for Europe. With the red army gone and new powers ermerging in asia (India and China) Europe would fall back if it accepted a country like Turkey. Where is the education, the skilled labor force, the working modern civil society , the science, the wealth or just the oil in Turkey? And look to Lebanon. A hundred years ago it was a christian dominated country. And now? A turkish membership in the EU have the potential to trigger civil war in Europe hundred years ahead. We want to live in peace. We do not want to be forced to fight a new battle for vienna.

Well. I guess you do not really know the problems of the turkish community here in Germany. Back in the seventies we hired many unskilled labor out of Turkey because this kind of work needed to be done. Today this kind of work is done by machines and many Germans just want the now unneeded turkish working poor back to Turkey (we got our own working poor). We did not attract skilled educated turks. Skilled and educated turks did not migrate to Germany in big numbers. Turks in Germany get the same chances in schools as anyone else. But their parents did not socialize them as needed. They speak turkish among themselves. They read turkish nespapers and listen to turkish radio. They marry young turkish girls out of turkey because they dislike turkish girls born in Germany. German born turkish girls are not devout enough. And we have many turkish girls stabbed to death by muslim fanatics - usally out of their familiy - for unislamic behavior. The turks in the second and third generation are even more nationalistic than the turks of the first generation. It is a question of numbers. In the US you have not whole neighborhoods of turks. So you can assimilate them in one generation. But you can't even assimilate christian mexicans if they live together in spanish speaking quarters. I admit that turks are hard working (if they have work), proud and honest people. But if you take "the wrong" subway here in Berlin you will meet a bunch of noisy, uneducated people with golden chains and expensive watches. So most Germans want them back in Turkey where they should ask for social benefits. Same for other european countries. Most of us Europeans just do not want to live together with muslims (just take a look to the dutch people). And we got enough - welcomed - migrants from eastern Europe. They are not only hard working but skilled too. And they are Christians we will assimilate in one generation. So I assume that it is better for both Europe and Turkey if Turkey will not join the EU. We both would not threaten our identity. And there is no reason for Europe. With the red army gone and new powers ermerging in asia (India and China) Europe would fall back if it accepted a country like Turkey. Where is the education, the skilled labor force, the working modern civil society , the science, the wealth or just the oil in Turkey? And look to Lebanon. A hundred years ago it was a christian dominated country. And now? A turkish membership in the EU have the potential to trigger civil war in Europe hundred years ahead. We want to live in peace. We do not want to be forced to fight a new battle for vienna.

You fail to notice that Germany has the same problems with also Greeks and Serbs. They did not take as much notice as their numbers are smaller. The promlem is German government never really planned to admit immigrants as an addition to German culture. They planned to use them for a time and sent them to their home when their need ended. That is what alieanated not only Turks but also other Balkan immigrants. Back in 70's Turkey was a backward country. More than that as Germany needed ýnqualified workers, only the ones who could not find a job in Turkey went Germany. My aunt and his husband were 2 of these Turks. They returned to Turkey when their older child reached the age of 7. After only one year their child has faced German educational system they saw that she will never have the same oppurtunity there as she will have in Turkey. There are still many Turks in Germany when reached to age to goto Univercity return the Turkey. The reason is German governmnet is directing Turks into technical schools no matter how good their grades are. My couisin is now a biologist working in a clinic helping families who can not have children to have one. What kind of a career oppurtunit could she find in Germany. To be a technicain at most. Turkey is now much more advanced then it used to be. Anybody who visits Turkey recently can say you that. Maybe if you visit Turkey; after seeing the differances of Turks that lives in Germany and Turkey, you might change your opinions about the subject.

"That was true for the first generation that went to Germany. But 2nd generation and 3rd generation Turks lives in Germany are generally critise that the emigrator families do not have the same educational oppurtunies as the Germans." -- Sorry, I didnt understand the nature of immigration there... I though they were expats, who saved some money and went back to Turkey with the savings (presumably because of higher value per mark). I didnt know they went with families to settle there. So India comparison is a bad one, since they go to gulf for work and go back home with savings. Are there many Turks who prefer to do that for cultural heritage which they obviously treasure? "No matter how good their grades are the not only Turkish but Serb and Greek students are directed to technical schools not Univercities." -- Isnt it like a choice, I mean if you have the money and the grades to go cant you go - I dont know how Germany or Turkey works?... here in the US, if you have the money and the grades (even if you have bad ones, but lots of money), people end up in universities none the less. "So for many intelligent Turks computer programming or trade are the only real career oppurtunities as none of these needs University degree." -- Wow, this hurts deep man... computer programming is a trade discipline there? Most Indians dont get jobs even if they have masters in comp. sci buddy, so they should be rather grateful for that. "Germans generally says that they proplems with emigrators but they generally fail to notice that USA, UK and Australia also got many emigrators from Turkey or in general Balkans but they did not have these proplems. I think main reason is in these countries there are equal oppurtunities for education and job for every citizen emigrator or not." -- As long as you pay, we give out seats... but its not inherently equal except as capitalists ;-) So the German socialist state is more un-equal because of being equal... something to keep in mind before social-engineering anyone.

Clautz: "Most of us Europeans just do not want to live together with muslims (just take a look to the dutch people). And we got enough - welcomed - migrants from eastern Europe. They are not only hard working but skilled too. And they are Christians we will assimilate in one generation." -- Does being Christian have everything to do with assimilation into Europe? - I mean you can take a Christian to your local beer-hall and not offend him like you might a Turk, or call him over for a Weiner and not offend him like you would an Indian... but isnt there more to it for being a German? - Like would a Serbian or a romanian, with such strong tendencies for authoritarian mind-set necessarily work out once you debate liberal politics (I have heard Germans take their political views strongly)? - I mean if you cant change the mind-set, whats the use of a superficial mug of beer or a hot-dog?... I am not saying a Turk or an Indian is anymore politically aligned with a German than a Serb or a Romanian, just that you can never assimilate anyone, and its best to work with the material you have in your hands.

This is quite out of concept but the word came to that. I do not know why some people think Turks do not drink Alcohol. Other than a short time during the reign of Murat IV in the 17th century drinking alcohol was never illegal in Ottoman Empire and in Turkey. Most of the Turks are social drinkers. Beer, Wine and Raki (a Turkish version of a Greek drink) are the most consummed ones. Slowly Turkish wine is achieveing world wide fame. I do not drink but my reason is not religional one.