"I do not drink but my reason is not religional one." -- Sure, I can give you the benefit of the doubt for that but Clausewitz will probably feel that its another instance of Turks being more Muslim than German. It was just an instance I used to hilight some of the differences... so how can they be religious Muslims anyway?

First I want to apologise. I used the word assimilate wrongly. What I meant was incorparated. In USA, Turks that becomes US citizens see themselves as both an American and Turk. Some of them serve in the US army and you can see them in any position in public life. One of the great values of USA is they admit everyone to their society as equals. That is not the case in Germany. Germans never have saw immigrate Turks or 2nd Generations as Germans. They looked them as outsiders who will one day return to their country. That is the base of the proplem. As they are not admitted into German society; Turks in Germany developed their own society. As they are also away from the cultural changes in Turkey; they developed their own sub-culture which is different from todays Turkey. For example they invented their own words, their own music (Turkish rap), their own life style. Take note that by creatiang a Turkish version of raps and several similar actions; some of the Turks in Germany identifies themselves as a sub-culture similar to African-Americans. German overlook to radical movements also led to the creation of their own radical movements. Kaplancilar terrorist organization is for example founded in Germany. Their primal objective is the destruction of Turkish Republic. As initially they were not anti-German, initially they were not persucuated. For years Turkey sent Germany proof after proof against this organisation's terrorist activities. But only recently Germany saw the potential threat they also faced from this organisation. My point is Germany should have seen the alieanation of Turkish population in Germany. It was caused by their own wrong policies.

PergrinePike wrote: "Does being Christian have everything to do with assimilation into Europe?" Sharing the same values helps. But there are other necessary common things too like language, history and a little bit of "clan feeling". But these questions are no real obstacles to assimilation. The real problem is the number of people living together in the same quarter/neighborhood watching their own TV and so on. Single migrants will be assimilated soon. Crowds will not.

Pars wrote: "My point is Germany should have seen the alieanation of Turkish population in Germany. It was caused by their own wrong policies." It is up to the turkish migrants to do everything necessary to assimilate if they want to stay. In the end it is up to the Germans (and to to Europeans as well) to decide with whom they want to live together and whom they regard as "german" or "european". If the turks want to be part of the game they are the ones who have to do something to be a "german" or a "european". If not: Go home!

It is the governments duty to give every citizen equal oppurtunity of education and job. This is one the primal issues in every constitution in every modern country. It is a basic civil right.

(I pushed the enter by mistake) It is the governments duty to give every citizen equal oppurtunity of education and job. This is one the primal issues in every constitution in every modern country. It is a basic civil right. German government simply did not do its duty, they made discrimination against immigrants. How can you expect them to adapt their new country when they were treated as secondary citizens.

pars wrote: "It is the governments duty to give every citizen equal oppurtunity of education and job." Most of the turks living in Germany are no german citizens. They feel and live a turkish identiy.They will not give away their turkish citiszenship (what you have to by german law to get the german citizenship). But there is no discrimination against turkish citizen either. They can join every school or university if they are qualified like all the other pupils and students. But most are not. There parents don't teach them the german language. And no history, math or science either. So german parents - like me - are going to neighborhoods without a turkish population because our kids should have a fine ecucation. With many not german speaking turks in class the other kids will not have the chance to learn what they could if all kids speak german and got some neccessary social skills from there parents too. And that is something every migrant have to deliver himself. That is not an obligation of the state or the community. The deal between the turks and the german governmant was: "You can come here to work and you will go home later;you do not come settle down." If some turks want to stay its fine to me if they want to assimilate; what needs one or two generations). But they just want to have all rights (they really got them) but don't want to deliver anything. They are loyal to Turkey and not to Germany. Thats their right too. But we owe them nothing. So assmilate with your own energy or go home. And by the way. We got some asean migrants (mostley vietnamese)too. Not so many like turks. They do not have communities of there own. Their kids speak german very well and they are doing very fine in school (with the german kids around them). If the turkish migranmts would have the same behavior there would be no current problems (maybe later if you look to the Lebanon).

Well, I have a friend that lived in Germany who returned to Turkey just because his high school teachers did not let him to attend Univercity. My aunts have returned to Turkey when their eldest child was 7 learning from other Turks about this problem. So, Clausewitz I have at least 3 witness that can testify against your observation.

Pars wrote: "So, Clausewitz I have at least 3 witness that can testify against your observation". I am certain you honestly believe what your verdicts say. But german law is completley different. No-school teacher have to decide if a student can attend university or not. Ifyouendigh school with success (a degree called "Abitur")you have the right to go to univerity. Period! Indeed you need a very good degree to take Human Medicine without staying on the waiting list. But for sure there are no ethnic priorities (this stuff is forbidden by law). Teachers have a saying if pupils on basic school can go to high school. But in the end it is just a question of your degree too. You need to be good enough especially in german and math to be allowed to go to high school. And many german kids are not. So many turkish kids can't go to high school too. Again the ethnic descent is no arguement here. Just a question of how good you be in school. And for the reasons I mentioned in my erlier posts turks got more problems on german schools than other kids. That is the reason why a smaller perdentage of turkish students will go to university.

You might be right Clausewitz. But in the end for justly so or not Turks in Germany are in a minority complex. They thought that after Germans used them as low level workers for years, they do not want them anymore. That is the main core of the proplem. Turkey entry to EU if ever happens; it will only ease Germany's proplems. EU's better organisational systems and economical aids will stop under employment in Turkey. Lower employee fees and higher work times will be great for European firms to open new factories in Turkey. (Turkish employess work in average 50 hours a week for nearly halp of the pay an European counterpart would take.) And it will also destroy the minority complex in Germany Turks.