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Subject: NZ may finally be about to sell the A4s
albywan    10/15/2009 10:48:19 PM
After the previous govenrment's decision that NZ no longer requires a air combat wing, the Skyhawks and Aermacchi trainers were put on the market. Up to now the US has not authorised the sale of the A4s so these have been sitting in storage.

Apparently the sale to a Arizona based training facility is now OK'd to go ahead.

Given NZ's lack of defense budget, what do you think a alternative replacement should be? There was talk of F16s a couple of years back, IMHO this would still be a valid consideration but what else would you suggest?

2nd hand M2000-9s?
Su-27s?
MiG 29?
2nd hand F18s?
 
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gf0012-aust       10/16/2009 12:36:51 AM
doubt that they'd go out and buy a separate type.  there is a push for NZ and Aust to have common logistics - and aircraft are the biggest parasites in the budget.


 
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Aussie Diggermark 2       10/16/2009 3:36:15 AM
NZ's Skyhawks were removed from service years ago (around 2005 I think). They have been stored ever since, with the engines periodically started up and basic maintenance only to keep them in a sellable condition.
 
They are not going to be replaced by ANY fighter. Their MB-339C trainers have been withdrawn from service too. 
 
NZ has completely forgone any fast jet capacity and there is no sign on the horizon that it is or will ever look to reinstate such a capability.
 
The Kiwis are rapidly emasculating their own defence capability and this draw-down process shows little sign of abating...
 
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Volkodav       10/16/2009 4:52:57 AM
The RNZAF has been out of the fast jet game for too long to just intoduce a new type and carry on as if nothing had happened.  They would need to undertake a long term training program starting with inserting personnel into another airforce to relearn lost skills.
 
An option might be to insert personnel into 1 Sqn RAAF with the aim of buying the SH's at the end of our lease.
 
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Aussiegunneragain       10/16/2009 7:10:53 PM
Agree with AD. The NZ public just isn't interested in spending money on this sort of defence capability because they don't see a need for it. The National party is the only one which would be interested in reintroducing a fast jet capability but if they started a procurement process it would become the central election issue, Labour would win and it would be cancelled. It is going to take a major geo-strategic change like a move by other nations towards contesting New Zealand's Antartic claim, for NZ to ever get this sort of capability again.
 
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gf0012-aust       10/16/2009 8:03:32 PM
the kiwis are more interested in BAMs and the truck driving side of RNZAF than fighters..
 
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BLUIE006       10/16/2009 10:52:41 PM
UCAV/UAV
 
 
 
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Aussiegunneragain       10/17/2009 4:23:59 AM

UCAV/UAV

 

 


Not a bad idea for NZ. They basically need maritime surveillance, close air support, ASW and maritime strike capabilities and UAV's/UCAV's could provide such as BAM's and Reaper could provide a significant proportion of the first two services. Other than that they need up to date manned maritime patrollers with a credible anti-shipa and anti-submarine capability, and gunship helo's would be useful for CAS and helecopter escort as well.
 
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Aussiegunneragain       10/17/2009 4:33:13 AM
Back on A4's, I wonder if there is any prospect of these babies ending up in private hands? It would be awesome if the Temora Aviation Museum could get hold of one of the ex-RAN A-4G's and keep it in flying condition. Some of those private joy-ride companies might also like to consider a TA-4. I'm sure their customers would love to go in an aircraft that can roll at 720 degrees per second!
 
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Volkodav       10/17/2009 5:00:25 AM
Back on A4's, I wonder if there is any prospect of these babies ending up in private hands? It would be awesome if the Temora Aviation Museum could get hold of one of the ex-RAN A-4G's and keep it in flying condition. Some of those private joy-ride companies might also like to consider a TA-4. I'm sure their customers would love to go in an aircraft that can roll at 720 degrees per second!
 
Mmmm......I've got an old family member with lots of cash, a pilots licence from his time in the RAN FAA and a hobby buying and flying old aircraft....
 
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DropBear       10/17/2009 5:56:16 AM
2nd hand M2000-9s?
Su-27s?
MiG 29?
2nd hand F18s
?
 
I think if you want to protect sperm whales and blue fin tuna, a better alternative is offshore patrol combatants for the Navy.
 
I guess you could wire F-16A to fire SNEB or LAU at naughty fishing trawlers but I'm not sure the Argies are that ibnterested in invading NZ airspace. 
 
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Aussiegunneragain       10/17/2009 7:20:17 PM











2nd hand M2000-9s?

Su-27s?

MiG 29?

2nd hand F18s
?


 


I think if you want to protect sperm whales and blue fin tuna, a better alternative is offshore patrol combatants for the Navy.

 

I guess you could wire F-16A to fire SNEB or LAU at naughty fishing trawlers but I'm not sure the Argies are that ibnterested in invading NZ airspace. 


I'd actually prefer to see them armed with ex-French Mirage 2000's to wallop the next bunch of French sailors that come into Auckland to blow up a Greenpeace vessel.
 
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BLUIE006       10/17/2009 8:22:53 PM
I think a variety of UCAV/ UAV (Air Support/BAMS/SEAD/Strike/Recon)
Maritime Patrol Aircraft ( hopefully P-8A) [Maritime Strike/ASW/SAR]
& Laptops ( cyber warfare ) [control of cyber space]
Light ARH or VTUAV
 
I think the fore mentioned is the only way forward for the RNZAF, until such time when there is a threat that warrants Fast Jets.
Don't get me wrong I'd love to see RNZAF with JSF, but it really isn't viable ATM ( it may be in the future),
UCAV/UAV and P3C/P-8A and a RNZAF Advanced Cyber War Centre could provide most Air Support tasks/missions
and/or neutralise Air defences/infrastructure in the Pacific/South East Asia.
 
Training UCAV/UAV pilots would be easier/quicker than fast jet pilots. ( prehaps a Kiwi UAV training centre, could also train Aussies  )
It would also provide RNZAF with specialist capabilities too contribute to ANZAC strike forces.
 
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gf0012-aust       10/17/2009 8:52:01 PM
Training UCAV/UAV pilots would be easier/quicker than fast jet pilots. 
The trend is not to train pilots in UAV handling.  For some reason the USAF still appears to be wedded to it, so outside of idealogical, I'm not sure why thats so.

All the evidence to date points to non pilots being easier to uptake and adapt.  esp if they are young geeks.  Its a moot point as for large UAV management its not just an operator involved.  its in a control room where there are a variety of other people in there providing supp feeds etc...  There is so much info available and coming in that one person cannot possibly handle all the feeds, as the amercians and israelis have discovered, the issue is not about getting quality feeds, its about sorting the noise and passing on the relevant material so that proper decisions can be made.  Pilots think "differently".  This is a new medium where the focus is on different layers of management.  You don't need pilots to be UAV controllers - you do need one in the room to provide input though as their input is better when it becomes tactical.  everyone else in the room is probably strategic.

the UAV driver doesn't need all the baggage that comes with pilots to do his/her job.


 
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BLUIE006       10/18/2009 12:45:16 AM


Training UCAV/UAV pilots would be easier/quicker than fast jet pilots. 


The trend is not to train pilots in UAV handling.  For some reason the USAF still appears to be wedded to it, so outside of ideological, I'm not sure why that's so.



All the evidence to date points to non pilots being easier to uptake and adapt.  esp if they are young geeks.  Its a moot point as for large UAV management its not just an operator involved.  its in a control room where there are a variety of other people in there providing supp feeds....  There is so much info available and coming in that one person cannot possibly handle all the feeds, as the amercians and Israelis have discovered, the issue is not about getting quality feeds, its about sorting the noise and passing on the relevant material so that proper decisions can be made.  Pilots think "differently".  This is a new medium where the focus is on different layers of management.  You don't need pilots to be UAV controllers - you do need one in the room to provide input though as their input is better when it becomes tactical.  everyone else in the room is probably strategic.




the UAV driver doesn't need all the baggage that comes with pilots to do his/her job.

Exactly one of the reasons UCAV/UAV would be more suitable for the RNZAF, the pool of appropriate candidates is larger ( particularly with all the kids playing XBOX and Play station ). UCAV/UAV drivers ( as you call them) don't need to tick all the physical box's a pilot would, and their decision making ability does not need to be scrutinised as much, because as you say the are in a control room with  multi level command management, and not operating autonomously.
YES?
 
Like a previous post stated RNZAF has not operated fast jets for some time; therefore it would take some time to build up the capability, UAV/UCAV capability could be built alot faster.





As you know:

Training fighter pilots requires more resources than almost any other soldier. They must undergo years of meticulous mental and physical training before they are ready to withstand the psychological and physiological rigors of air combat. They must be trained to control their fear during a critical system failure, cope with G-force, eject over hostile terrain, and evade enemy patrols. They must also have an intimate knowledge regarding the technical specifications of the immensely complex, multimillion pound aircraft which they pilot.
 
 
Drones don't need all that:
 

RAF chiefs recently approved a plan to use ?lower grade? staff to operate drones, with  only 30 hours? of basic flying training ? rather than those who have undergone the £4million fighter pilot programme.

?We don?t necessarily need highly trained pilots,? said Wing Commander Richard McMahon.

Studies show the best drone crews are often young video-game players rather than experienced combat air crews

 
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albywan       10/18/2009 4:08:34 PM


I'd actually prefer to see them armed with ex-French Mirage 2000's to wallop the next bunch of French sailors that come into Auckland to blow up a Greenpeace vessel.

+1, and for several world cup defeats

I think the NZ Govt in there defense review should address airborne support for the ground troops. Armed Recon Helo's should be a part of this, given the disbandment of the air combat arm. Tiger's to match the Australian cousins...
 
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