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Subject: Whose Side Is God Really On
SYSOP    8/1/2015 5:29:23 AM
 
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CJH       8/1/2015 12:48:45 PM
It might help to look at Islam as a cult and Wahhabi-ism as an off shoot cult. Think Jim Jones of Jonestown Guyana. Expect there to be a lot of moral depravity lying beneath a veneer of outward piousity. Cults are all about exalting some leader or some group of people rather than God who becomes just a necessary stage prop (or idol) to cult members. The leader or group of people gets all the devotion due to God.

For the terrorists its self-worship disguised as devotion to God. That's why they take "unbelief" so personally.

 
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Nate Dog    Not a cult   8/1/2015 3:43:14 PM
Purely on numbers, by any definition of the word, Islam is as mainstream as it gets. Islam is the most numerous religion by practicing population, not to mention that the level of secularism in the muslim world is the lowest amongst all the faiths. I may be talking crap but that sounds like the most successful form of religion mankind has yet come up with.
Issue for Islam, nationalism has supplanted religion as the most successful mass organisation of civilisation that we have yet to come across. Call it the ultimate version of a defunct/outmoded technology. Islam is the best Hindenburg flying, up against P-51 mustangs. 
Shame for its adherents who're stuck with a form of society that is horribly out of date. Not their fault. All 3 of the major religions sprung from the same source material, only the Koran is the worst one for nation forming. It concentrates way too much on the afterlife and how to achieve a good one, with set piece instructions on how to get there (die killing infidels) and the exact rewards theyre to expect (72 virgins and the souls of those they'd slain in this world, serving them in the next). At the time, it was the most successful trope for dealing with the existential problems facing mankind. How miserable existence is and trying to find a reason for why it was so bad and that there must be something better.  
Once existence becomes not so miserable, Islam's adherents, locked into its ways are now stuck with an immutable book with the same set piece instructions. Conversely the other 2 religions, not dwelling so much on the after life, could embrace advances and run with them.
 
Read David Christian's big history. It makes for fascinating reading and helps understand whats really causing this disaster to unfold....
 
 
 
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trenchsol       8/2/2015 4:12:40 PM
Perhaps there is another way to look at it. Secularism is the lowest in countries where Islam is dominant. Are there any data grouped by region ? For example Mongolia is the most secular country in the world, with only 40% of population practicing any religion. And those who do are mostly Muslims. 
 
I think the mentality is one important factor. Islam is strongest in part of the world where Arab culture is dominant. It might affect how the faith is practiced.
 
Another interesting analysis would be what percent of Muslims gets radicalized grouped by region. I have no data to support is, but it looks like much lower percent of Bosnian Muslims and Muslims from Kosovo gets radicalized, compared to same percentage in Arab countries. Bosnia and Kosovo are countries with majority of Muslims in Europe. Azerbaijan is, technically in Europe, but belongs more into Central Asia. However, I don't think I ever heard of Azeri radical. Central Asia is worth checking, too. It looks line there are much more Uzbek radicals, than Tajik, Turkoman or Kazakh, for example. Why ?
 
There are operational research methods which allows you to make a hypothesis and test it by applying statistical methods on data collected.
 
 
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trenchsol       8/2/2015 7:40:55 PM
Sorry. Mongols are mostly Buddhists. My bad.
 
 
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joe6pack       8/5/2015 11:07:50 AM
>only the Koran is the worst one for nation forming
 
I'm no religious scholar.. but I'd think that is in part to the Koran actually presents itself as more of a governing document...  
 
While.. in contrast.. and anecdotally.. you have (me messing up the actual wording..) but essentially Jesus saying "
Render unto Caesar the things that are Caesar's, and unto God the things that are God's"  Giving at least a nod to the idea of secularism.. Islam (in my limited knowledge.. doesn't seem so open to that)
 
So.. try governing from a document that specifically can not be amended, altered, updated.. in any way.. in perpetuity... Nothing resembling a successful form of government has managed to do that (yet..) 
 
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Nate Dog    Joe   8/6/2015 7:57:48 PM
Thats a very succinct way of putting it. Hadn't thought of it from that particular angle, but yes, the Koran forbids secular rule, its a how to guide on everything from religious observance, to social and secular governance, to a commerce guide, through to relationship councelling, a book of laws for the courts. Muslims are taught that they need to read but one book in their lives to the exclusion of all others. The result, at least in my anecdotal experiences, are that arabs are narrow minded people with phenomenal data retention. Purely a cultural limitation and largely a result of Koranic limitations. And you're right of course, immutable laws lead to some very outdated thinking not being ousted = disaster. 
 
Don't know that the bible alludes to secularism, only, the bible, both new and old testament, simply dont dabble so far into setting guidelines, so things are more open to interpretation.
Theres another big impetus for change within the Judeo/Christian monoaethistic belief structure, and that is that bible is never to be studied in solitude, rather, always at least with one other companion. By the definition of the scriptures, the bible/torah is supposed to be a discussion, not a strait jacket. 

Clearly, as a model, the older monoaethstic religions have fared better in a more modern secular world. 

 
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joe6pack    Nate   8/7/2015 10:16:33 AM
"the bible/torah is supposed to be a discussion, not a strait jacket. "
 
Which interestingly, is what one of my co-workers ( a very nice Muslim fellow) sees as the problems with those religions.  He takes the Koran as the final edit.. earlier versions got screwed up by people.. so a clearer.. more definitive version was needed..
 
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