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Subject: NAVY SEALS VS BRITISH SAS
LJ813    7/1/2005 9:34:17 PM
I WILL GO FOR THE NAVY..
 
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lunar    Reactive   5/9/2011 8:26:49 AM

So this waste of space "debate" has honestly come down to who has had better swimming lessons? No one currently posting in this thread has any basis for comparison in terms of operational doctrine, support, or anything else for that matter.





As far as the Marines are concerned. I think we would handled the IRA just fine. As we took care of the Iraqi insurgents and the Taliban terrorist. Well, i believe it would not have taken as long as it took you guys. Its all debatable.

 

You miss the point if you think that about the IRA, if you know anything about the issues you'll know that killing the IRA was not the primary objective - all it did, in every case when assasinations were actioned or "sponsored" through Unionists was to prolong the violence by making IRA recruitment easier, there were necessary limits with what could achieved without ending up with a civil war. What the US could have done as the primary source of fundraising for the IRA was very simple; to outlaw it and you failed to do so. The solution to the NI "troubles" was never a military one.


 

 

And i don't believe any American hates the British. At least for me, i don't. I respect you guys, and thank God for our commonalities. I just think you guys get on your high horses and have a bit of inferiority complex. And you act like your military never learned from other militaries. I'll admit this. Your beer is a lot better.

 

Right, there is clearly an inferiority complex with some of my countrymen evident generally when these entirely pointless "VS" debates happen, chalk that down to the legacy of the glory days of the British empire or whatever else, the bottom line is that the interesting parts of these debates are never nationalistic dick-waving contests, which is what this thread has essentially boiled down to.


Mr Reactive. I believe some of your "peeps" (JTR; Gaffer) are too emotional when discussing this subject. I will say this again for the last time. You guys have the greatest BEER on earth.
 
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JTR~~    hang on just one minute lunar   5/9/2011 11:41:44 AM




So this waste of space "debate" has honestly come down to who has had better swimming lessons? No one currently posting in this thread has any basis for comparison in terms of operational doctrine, support, or anything else for that matter.













As far as the Marines are concerned. I think we would handled the IRA just fine. As we took care of the Iraqi insurgents and the Taliban terrorist. Well, i believe it would not have taken as long as it took you guys. Its all debatable.



 



You miss the point if you think that about the IRA, if you know anything about the issues you'll know that killing the IRA was not the primary objective - all it did, in every case when assasinations were actioned or "sponsored" through Unionists was to prolong the violence by making IRA recruitment easier, there were necessary limits with what could achieved without ending up with a civil war. What the US could have done as the primary source of fundraising for the IRA was very simple; to outlaw it and you failed to do so. The solution to the NI "troubles" was never a military one.






 



 



And i don't believe any American hates the British. At least for me, i don't. I respect you guys, and thank God for our commonalities. I just think you guys get on your high horses and have a bit of inferiority complex. And you act like your military never learned from other militaries. I'll admit this. Your beer is a lot better.



 



Right, there is clearly an inferiority complex with some of my countrymen evident generally when these entirely pointless "VS" debates happen, chalk that down to the legacy of the glory days of the British empire or whatever else, the bottom line is that the interesting parts of these debates are never nationalistic dick-waving contests, which is what this thread has essentially boiled down to.







Mr Reactive. I believe some of your "peeps" (JTR; Gaffer) are too emotional when discussing this subject. I will say this again for the last time. You guys have the greatest BEER on earth.


My response emotional? I think you must be very much mistaken; I have given nothing but fully reasoned and highly appropriate responses.  i will now merely re-quote one of your previous responses to this topic board and then you may perhaps want to re classify your approach here, Gaffer I agree is certainly being a great deal over emotional with some of his responses here, but i would very much dispute myself as being labelled the same, as for the re-quote of one of your previous posts:

"Too bad you guys are second rate, if not third. I don't blame a lot of you guys for being jealous. You wish your country and military was like the US. Your police gets man handled by a bunch of kids (anti-austerity anarchist protestors), your SAS gets captured in Libya and in Persian Gulf War 1. You seem to want to brag about how you invented and developed everything. Get Real. You guys have done some intresting things, but go around parading that your the best in the world. You simply don't have the caliber of soldiers (recruits) that you may once had. And give up some of your pride and admit the truth. Americans are confident enough to admit failure and learning things from others. We even trained you in a thing or two; we also have been the model for other countries."  

your words not mine...
Regards JTR~~
 
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lunar    JTTR   5/10/2011 12:32:33 PM
Hello JTTR. Just a short response to your comments below:
 
In terms of failure rates for new interns i think i am correct in stating that the SAS/SBS intake failure rate is higher than in any other special force unit, roughly along the line of 97-98% out of an average of 200 candidates however this can vary to either end of the scale. i also think that the only unit then comes close to challenging this failure rate of the Royal Marine Commando sniper school in which only 5-10 candidates will pass each year, however do not quote me  on this, I?m not entirely sure but i vaguely remember reading it a while back.  "Have the most rigorous entrance training program because it is all water oriented" this quote in particular i disagree with.
 
Could it be that the 97-98% failure rate is as such (and i don't believe its that high. More than likely 15%) is such because the cnadidates are not as good.  That is to say, say shold not have been accepted to the SAS qualification course. Furthermore, i believe there is sufficient and credible unclassified information on SAS and Navy SEALs training program to help deduce which may be arguably more rigourous. I have a military background which is land based. And although it troubles me to say this because i'm former military, and more suited for training regimens that are land based. The Navy Seals are all around in their training, but what sets them apart is their aquatic training. The SAS and Delta Force are not on the same level as far as training regimen. You have to be a special breed to withstand training that is "water oriented". These guys can do miles on end (when compared to the SAS or Delta Force) in the ocean. Thier BUDS training program is harsh because of this nature.
 
The same can be said of most special forces, thereby this leaves us little to go upon. so it begs the question how can people make the claims that they do? Well mostly it is on pure reputation and by the ways of things there is no reputation larger than that of the SAS. Their reputation is prolific, and it is measured in terms of its success rate. They have been part of some of history?s most defining moments and have successfully carried out some of the greatest military feats of action in memorable history, including the most daring. The SEALs also have a strong reputation, but i would go so far as to say that it is less than that of the SAS (shorter history, some more notable slip ups). people then analyse as to what makes a units reputation so great, invariably they look at training equipment, the units pedigree etc, then they combine the (especially concerning special forces) relatively unsubstantiated claims (which may or may not be correct, hence unsubstantiated) in regards to training, equipment etc to make their final claims in relation to who is better or what not..
 
Well if reputation is the case than a strong case can be made for SEAL team 6. Although there are many missions that are assigned to the SEALs, SAS, Delta Force, and Marine Force Recon (MARSOC), they are classified and we will never truly know the extent of them--although word gets out via books and other outlets. The SAS has a very fine reputation but they had some disastrous incidents (as the SEALs did in Panama) along the way.  The SEAL team that conducted this last raid did it with the utmost stealth, proficiency, and speed while taking away valuble prisoners and intel. I think groups like the Navy SEAL team 6 may have the edge because the US is involved in more conflicts that Great Brittain. I believe the US has more "intelligence driven" missions because of this.
 
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lunar    JTTR   5/10/2011 12:35:24 PM
before you scold me on the my typos, let me just say that i wrote real fast without checking.
 
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JTR~~       5/10/2011 12:58:11 PM

before you scold me on the my typos, let me just say that i wrote real fast without checking.


it happens from time to time, no scolding necessary
 
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maruben       5/10/2011 1:09:32 PM

Hello JTTR. Just a short response to your comments below:

 

In terms of failure rates for new interns i think i am correct in stating that the SAS/SBS intake failure rate is higher than in any other special force unit, roughly along the line of 97-98% out of an average of 200 candidates however this can vary to either end of the scale. i also think that the only unit then comes close to challenging this failure rate of the Royal Marine Commando sniper school in which only 5-10 candidates will pass each year, however do not quote me  on this, I?m not entirely sure but i vaguely remember reading it a while back.  "Have the most rigorous entrance training program because it is all water oriented" this quote in particular i disagree with.
 

Could it be that the 97-98% failure rate is as such (and i don't believe its that high. More than likely 15%) is such because the cnadidates are not as good.  That is to say, say shold not have been accepted to the SAS qualification course. Furthermore, i believe there is sufficient and credible unclassified information on SAS and Navy SEALs training program to help deduce which may be arguably more rigourous. I have a military background which is land based. And although it troubles me to say this because i'm former military, and more suited for training regimens that are land based. The Navy Seals are all around in their training, but what sets them apart is their aquatic training. The SAS and Delta Force are not on the same level as far as training regimen. You have to be a special breed to withstand training that is "water oriented". These guys can do miles on end (when compared to the SAS or Delta Force) in the ocean. Thier BUDS training program is harsh because of this nature.

 

 



Just an honest question:
Are the Seals are the US mix of what in UK is SAS and SBS?
Thanks in advance.
 
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JTR~~    indeed fair points lunar   5/10/2011 2:31:36 PM

Hello JTTR. Just a short response to your comments below:

 

In terms of failure rates for new interns i think i am correct in stating that the SAS/SBS intake failure rate is higher than in any other special force unit, roughly along the line of 97-98% out of an average of 200 candidates however this can vary to either end of the scale. i also think that the only unit then comes close to challenging this failure rate of the Royal Marine Commando sniper school in which only 5-10 candidates will pass each year, however do not quote me  on this, I?m not entirely sure but i vaguely remember reading it a while back.  "Have the most rigorous entrance training program because it is all water oriented" this quote in particular i disagree with.
 

Could it be that the 97-98% failure rate is as such (and i don't believe its that high. More than likely 15%) is such because the cnadidates are not as good.  That is to say, say shold not have been accepted to the SAS qualification course. Furthermore, i believe there is sufficient and credible unclassified information on SAS and Navy SEALs training program to help deduce which may be arguably more rigourous. I have a military background which is land based. And although it troubles me to say this because i'm former military, and more suited for training regimens that are land based. The Navy Seals are all around in their training, but what sets them apart is their aquatic training. The SAS and Delta Force are not on the same level as far as training regimen. You have to be a special breed to withstand training that is "water oriented". These guys can do miles on end (when compared to the SAS or Delta Force) in the ocean. Thier BUDS training program is harsh because of this nature.

 

The same can be said of most special forces, thereby this leaves us little to go upon. so it begs the question how can people make the claims that they do? Well mostly it is on pure reputation and by the ways of things there is no reputation larger than that of the SAS. Their reputation is prolific, and it is measured in terms of its success rate. They have been part of some of history?s most defining moments and have successfully carried out some of the greatest military feats of action in memorable history, including the most daring. The SEALs also have a strong reputation, but i would go so far as to say that it is less than that of the SAS (shorter history, some more notable slip ups). people then analyse as to what makes a units reputation so great, invariably they look at training equipment, the units pedigree etc, then they combine the (especially concerning special forces) relatively unsubstantiated claims (which may or may not be correct, hence unsubstantiated) in regards to training, equipment etc to make their final claims in relation to who is better or what not..

 

Well if reputation is the case than a strong case can be made for SEAL team 6. Although there are many missions that are assigned to the SEALs, SAS, Delta Force, and Marine Force Recon (MARSOC), they are classified and we will never truly know the extent of them--although word gets out via books and other outlets. The SAS has a very fine reputation but they had some disastrous incidents (as the SEALs did in Panama) along the way.  The SEAL team that conducted this last raid did it with the utmost stealth, proficiency, and speed while taking away valuble prisoners and intel. I think gr
 
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lunar       5/10/2011 2:36:05 PM
I think that can be a fair assesment.
 
Also, its a shame that the SBS isn't as much talked about as the SAS. I remember reading about their harrowing experience in hand-to-hand combat in the caves of Tora Bora.
 
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JTR~~       5/10/2011 2:36:42 PM




Hello JTTR. Just a short response to your comments below:



 



In terms of failure rates for new interns i think i am correct in stating that the SAS/SBS intake failure rate is higher than in any other special force unit, roughly along the line of 97-98% out of an average of 200 candidates however this can vary to either end of the scale. i also think that the only unit then comes close to challenging this failure rate of the Royal Marine Commando sniper school in which only 5-10 candidates will pass each year, however do not quote me  on this, I?m not entirely sure but i vaguely remember reading it a while back.  "Have the most rigorous entrance training program because it is all water oriented" this quote in particular i disagree with.

 



Could it be that the 97-98% failure rate is as such (and i don't believe its that high. More than likely 15%) is such because the cnadidates are not as good.  That is to say, say shold not have been accepted to the SAS qualification course. Furthermore, i believe there is sufficient and credible unclassified information on SAS and Navy SEALs training program to help deduce which may be arguably more rigourous. I have a military background which is land based. And although it troubles me to say this because i'm former military, and more suited for training regimens that are land based. The Navy Seals are all around in their training, but what sets them apart is their aquatic training. The SAS and Delta Force are not on the same level as far as training regimen. You have to be a special breed to withstand training that is "water oriented". These guys can do miles on end (when compared to the SAS or Delta Force) in the ocean. Thier BUDS training program is harsh because of this nature.



 



 









Just an honest question:

Are the Seals are the US mix of what in UK is SAS and SBS?

Thanks in advance.




Your question is a little confused but i think i get the gist. To some extent yes they are, but like i said only to some extent. They are more like the SBS. The SBS focus on water borne operations as do the SEALs but each is just as comfortable when operating in a land based environment but their real home territory is indeed the water. The SAS on the other hand is meant to dominate a land based battle space, but as and when needed, can comfortably transgress to water based operations as and when circumstance dictates.
i hope this was of some help

Regards JTR~~ 
 
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lunar       5/10/2011 2:40:02 PM




Hello JTTR. Just a short response to your comments below:



 



In terms of failure rates for new interns i think i am correct in stating that the SAS/SBS intake failure rate is higher than in any other special force unit, roughly along the line of 97-98% out of an average of 200 candidates however this can vary to either end of the scale. i also think that the only unit then comes close to challenging this failure rate of the Royal Marine Commando sniper school in which only 5-10 candidates will pass each year, however do not quote me  on this, I?m not entirely sure but i vaguely remember reading it a while back.  "Have the most rigorous entrance training program because it is all water oriented" this quote in particular i disagree with.

 



Could it be that the 97-98% failure rate is as such (and i don't believe its that high. More than likely 15%) is such because the cnadidates are not as good.  That is to say, say shold not have been accepted to the SAS qualification course. Furthermore, i believe there is sufficient and credible unclassified information on SAS and Navy SEALs training program to help deduce which may be arguably more rigourous. I have a military background which is land based. And although it troubles me to say this because i'm former military, and more suited for training regimens that are land based. The Navy Seals are all around in their training, but what sets them apart is their aquatic training. The SAS and Delta Force are not on the same level as far as training regimen. You have to be a special breed to withstand training that is "water oriented". These guys can do miles on end (when compared to the SAS or Delta Force) in the ocean. Thier BUDS training program is harsh because of this nature.



 



 









Just an honest question:

Are the Seals are the US mix of what in UK is SAS and SBS?

Thanks in advance.



I think that can be a fair assesment.
 
Also, its a shame that the SBS isn't as much talked about as the SAS. I remember reading about their harrowing experience in hand-to-hand combat in the caves of Tora Bora.
 

 
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