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Subject: CT unit or SOF ?
bravoss    3/29/2007 3:24:57 PM
After finishing the studies I thought about joing a police ct unit or joing the military and later trying to get to SOF unit. what is more challenging, and what are your advices on which one should i go for? the plus of the police might be that i won't travel alot and probably the i'll have a bigger paycheck, altough its not really crucial for me.
 
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mough       3/30/2007 2:24:37 PM



Yes the  UKSF(SAS&SBS) were given pay raises, also they could take 6 month active sabbaticals, as they called them, basically go off for a few motnths to work for  a PMC, make their money and come back and slot back into a squadron, no questions asked.


Hadn't heard about the second part of that, though it makes sense.  Last I'd heard from a friend who's TA over there (though not in a UKSF unit, so may have been wrong anyway) was that if you left to go contract, even from the reserve SAS units, you had to get your rucksack ready to go back through selection . . .


no you have to re-do selection if you've been gone for a year+, which has happened from time to time, guys leave realise they miss it, and ask to come back.

 
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GOP       3/30/2007 3:11:19 PM




We will never officially know how much CAG or ST6 operators are making, as they are officially denied by our government. I'd also say they are in the 100k range. It's glaringly obvious to me though that the CAG and ST6 types aren't in it for the money (the PMC's aren't getting many CAG/ST6 guys)...anyone who is willing to go through pure h*ll to get to that level isn't interested in making alot of money. That lifestyle ain't for everyone...if you are a family man type or want to earn alot of cash, then that business ain't for you in my opinion.

Sidenote - I can't stand the whole "DEVGRU" thing... they are SEAL Team 6 (or ST6). Calling ST6 "DEVGRU" is like calling CAG/SFOD-D "Boeing engineers"...it's generic and obviously bs. So let's drop the whole DEVGRU thing and keep ST6. Sorry, just a pet peeve of mine.



The guys in JSOC make the same base pay as everyone else in the military in the same pay grade, plus most have been to just about all the schools that produce special duty pay.  It's still not boatloads of money, though, which is why CAG is very rank heavy and fast tracks guys to get them that rank.

The real change for Tier One and other SOF units has been the recent introduction of very large reenlistment bonuses designed to keep guys from going to PMCs.

 

If you look at the actual number of guys in CAG and ST6, then PMC attrition has been as issue for both groups, even though they are not the bulk of PMC contractors.  Those guys don't tend to be in it for the money (anyone who is made a major mistake by ever joining the US military -- at least until the boom in the PMC business), but that can change for less than greedy reasons when you've got a mortgage, two kids needing college tuition, alimony from your first marriage, etc. to deal with. 


So are the Tier 1 guys close to the $100k level you think? I just couldn't personally see the Tier 1/SMU guys leaving their units for the PMC's. I mean, you'll be making more money, but you'll be in the same country as your former team and they'll be kicking in doors and doing the HSLD stuff, while the PMC guys will be gaurding a checkpoint or building (or possibly doing diplomatic protection at the SMU level). I can understand some of the guys leaving for the PMC if they have alot of bills/a family, etc...but honestly I can't see most of the Tier 1 guys having a family (they are gone 10 months out of the year in peace time, and can be gone for 18-24 months straight on deployment, they have wild hours, etc). I think it takes a completely different person to be in Tier 1 units than in vanilla SOF, because at that level it's all about job performance and complete commitment. But hey, this is just a job. If I had a family and I felt I wasn't seeing them nough or wasn't making enough money to support them, then I wouldn't care what unit I was leaving...I'd come home and get a more stable high paying job somewhere.
 
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dirtykraut       3/30/2007 7:13:09 PM












haha
nicely said. the bad thing is that i don't live in the United States.
One of the reasons i'm studying is that if i fail and dont get the job
i wanted, i can still find another good job, altough it might be the
office job which i wouldn't really like to do. To me, it seem that it's
easier to join police CT units than Army SF units primarily because
police units are orientated exclusively to counter terrorism and SF
units do lots of other operations, so i think the training is probably
rougher(survival,etc)..
 








Where do you live (if it's okay to ask)?  I'm kind of surprised about the idea that cops get bigger paychecks -- if you factor in both special duty pay as well as the kind of re-enlistment bonuses the US military is currently paying for special operations personnel, I'd be surprised to hear of any law enforcement officers here in the US that are making more than operator-type SOF personnel.






 





Horsesoldier, this is going a little off topic, but your post made me remember an article I read about the SAS getting a raise. Supposedly, an SAS soldier now gets close to 100k a year. The reason they did this (supposedly) was to lower the attrition rate as many SAS guys were going to work for PMC's for a lot more money. Is there any truth to that?Also, if there is, I would assume that CAG and DEVGRU all got raises? (As they are the most valuable operators in the US arsenal and the US can hardly afford to lose them to PMC's.) And Mough, I am sure you could probably answer that question as well (if your reading this).




Yes the  UKSF(SAS&SBS) were given pay raises, also they could take 6 month active sabbaticals, as they called them, basically go off for a few motnths to work for  a PMC, make their money and come back and slot back into a squadron, no questions asked.


That's a neat way of doing things, I would never have thought about sabbatacls.....Now this is a stupid question that you may not be able to answer, but it has to be asked; does the regiment have the right to tax some of that money earned in PMC's, since it was the regiment who aprroved the sabbatical?
 
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dirtykraut       3/30/2007 7:22:48 PM

I was going to contribute to this thread, but I'm a little too irritated and sleep deprived.  I just hope to God that if terrorists attack a target somewhere in this country that ST6, DEVGRU, CAG, HRT, or whatever the hell else they call those "Tier One" teams arrive on the scene before I have to do something with my apparently subpar, less than "Tier One" skills and get somebody hurt.  Given the size of this country and the laws regard the military use in law enforcement matters, I'm sure the military and military CT teams should be on these scene within a day or so.  Just enough time to load the victims into body bags. 

 

"Tell my  momma I did my best.  Bury me in the leaning rest."


You know, I never looked at it that way...but your right. Who the hell says SWAT can't do the job they do just because they aren't tier one enough. In fact, I would rather have SWAT rescue me in a domestic terrorist situation, as they would probably have greater concern for my safety (let's face it, tier one guys are kind of war junkies, they would actually enjoy taking down the terrorists)...Having said that, I know for a fact that coppers get a hard on busting people. (mostly for small things like speeding tickets). I was just in Boston last weekend and the coppers were practially hiding in the trees like the damn charlies did in Vietnam. I have never seen more tickets handed out in my life.
 
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GOP       3/30/2007 7:57:10 PM


(let's face it, tier one guys are kind of war junkies, they would actually enjoy taking down the terrorists)

Have you ever met any tier one guys? You obviously don't know the job description. Tier 1 guys are extremely patient and extremely well disciplined people. Their career, alot of the time, is spent in a "hurry up and wait" situation, in which some scumbag has hijacked an aircraft and they get ready to go, then higher ups say "wait...let's negotiate a little more"...they are also older and more mature than the young guys who come into the feeder units, because they've been there and done (they just happen to be the most profecient operators in that country). Also, what makes you think they would enjoy taking down terrorists, like they are some kind of scumbag Vietnam war physopaths whom owed down villages? They ain't like that, their only goal is completion of the mission...not killing others. If the mission could be accomplished through negotiations, then that is a much better deal and they understand that. Hollywood may make these guys out to be war junkies, but the truth is the complete opposite. Sure, they may want to get the opportunity to do their job for real, but killing isn't their goal whatsoever.


 
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dirtykraut       4/1/2007 8:16:51 PM




(let's face it, tier one guys are kind of war junkies, they would actually enjoy taking down the terrorists)


Have you ever met any tier one guys? You obviously don't know the job description. Tier 1 guys are extremely patient and extremely well disciplined people. Their career, alot of the time, is spent in a "hurry up and wait" situation, in which some scumbag has hijacked an aircraft and they get ready to go, then higher ups say "wait...let's negotiate a little more"...they are also older and more mature than the young guys who come into the feeder units, because they've been there and done (they just happen to be the most profecient operators in that country). Also, what makes you think they would enjoy taking down terrorists, like they are some kind of scumbag Vietnam war physopaths whom owed down villages? They ain't like that, their only goal is completion of the mission...not killing others. If the mission could be accomplished through negotiations, then that is a much better deal and they understand that. Hollywood may make these guys out to be war junkies, but the truth is the complete opposite. Sure, they may want to get the opportunity to do their job for real, but killing isn't their goal whatsoever.





GOP, I have met a few operators (tier one). And yes, they are patient and disciplined, and they are very good at their jobs. But that does not change the fact that they are war junkies. I don't see how you can be in a tier one unit without being addicted to  combat high (from training or missions). And they do enjoy hunting down terrorists, if they didn't they wouldn't be in those units and they would't be any good at their jobs. Would I say that tier one guys are sort of a breed apart? Yes, but they very much enjoy what they do....On another note, what is this about Vietnam. There are only 2 documented atrocities where US soldiers wiped out villages. GOP, check online and google "Vietnam War Myths". Some of the findings will surprise you. They surprised me. The media would have you believe that most of American soldiers in Vietnam were drug addicted, psycho pathic conscripts who didn't want to be there. In fact, 75 % of all the men and women who served in Nam were volunteers. Anyways check it out, it will dispel some of the myths of the Vietnam war, and after reading it you will respect these soldiers who gave incredible service and came home to be called baby killers a lot more.
 
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GOP       4/1/2007 9:20:20 PM







(let's face it, tier one guys are kind of war junkies, they would actually enjoy taking down the terrorists)




Have you ever met any tier one guys? You obviously don't know the job description. Tier 1 guys are extremely patient and extremely well disciplined people. Their career, alot of the time, is spent in a "hurry up and wait" situation, in which some scumbag has hijacked an aircraft and they get ready to go, then higher ups say "wait...let's negotiate a little more"...they are also older and more mature than the young guys who come into the feeder units, because they've been there and done (they just happen to be the most profecient operators in that country). Also, what makes you think they would enjoy taking down terrorists, like they are some kind of scumbag Vietnam war physopaths whom owed down villages? They ain't like that, their only goal is completion of the mission...not killing others. If the mission could be accomplished through negotiations, then that is a much better deal and they understand that. Hollywood may make these guys out to be war junkies, but the truth is the complete opposite. Sure, they may want to get the opportunity to do their job for real, but killing isn't their goal whatsoever.







GOP, I have met a few operators (tier one). And yes, they are patient and disciplined, and they are very good at their jobs. But that does not change the fact that they are war junkies. I don't see how you can be in a tier one unit without being addicted to  combat high (from training or missions). And they do enjoy hunting down terrorists, if they didn't they wouldn't be in those units and they would't be any good at their jobs. Would I say that tier one guys are sort of a breed apart? Yes, but they very much enjoy what they do....On another note, what is this about Vietnam. There are only 2 documented atrocities where US soldiers wiped out villages. GOP, check online and google "Vietnam War Myths". Some of the findings will surprise you. They surprised me. The media would have you believe that most of American soldiers in Vietnam were drug addicted, psycho pathic conscripts who didn't want to be there. In fact, 75 % of all the men and women who served in Nam were volunteers. Anyways check it out, it will dispel some of the myths of the Vietnam war, and after reading it you will respect these soldiers who gave incredible service and came home to be called baby killers a lot more.

The tier one guys I've met all struck me as incredibly normal, friendly people. Granted, I didn't ask them about anything related to the military/politics/my goals, or anything like that, but I absolutely would not classify these people as war junkies. OK, I think the problem here is not what you mean, but the term you used. Sure they are addicted to the combat high/adrenaline rush, as most SOF operators are. But, I don't believe they 'enjoy' taking lives...hunting down terrorists is one thing, but I don't think they enjoy the actual deed of killing them. Many may be extremely hardened to it, I don't know, but I don't think any reasonable person ever enjoys taking life.

The Vietnam thing wasn't meant for the average soldier or SOF guy,  but to the rare physcopath did kill civs. Example,  in the book "Never Fight fair" about SEAL operations, one SEAL unit in Vietnam was sent to a free fire zone to conduct an op against a tax collecter who was stealing money from the villages to fund the VC. Anyway, they spotted  some people walking down the trail toward them, and it became obvious that it was a woman with a child. Well, one of the SEALs wanted to kill them anyway, and had to be ordered not to fire his weapon. That same SEAL killed other civilians before and had a reputation. Anyway, that same SEAL was arrested when his unit got back from Vietnam for raping a woman on the break while he was on his lunch break. There were physchopaths in some units, even the SOF units.
 
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dirtykraut       4/2/2007 12:19:23 AM











(let's face it, tier one guys are kind of war junkies, they would actually enjoy taking down the terrorists)






Have you ever met any tier one guys? You obviously don't know the job description. Tier 1 guys are extremely patient and extremely well disciplined people. Their career, alot of the time, is spent in a "hurry up and wait" situation, in which some scumbag has hijacked an aircraft and they get ready to go, then higher ups say "wait...let's negotiate a little more"...they are also older and more mature than the young guys who come into the feeder units, because they've been there and done (they just happen to be the most profecient operators in that country). Also, what makes you think they would enjoy taking down terrorists, like they are some kind of scumbag Vietnam war physopaths whom owed down villages? They ain't like that, their only goal is completion of the mission...not killing others. If the mission could be accomplished through negotiations, then that is a much better deal and they understand that. Hollywood may make these guys out to be war junkies, but the truth is the complete opposite. Sure, they may want to get the opportunity to do their job for real, but killing isn't their goal whatsoever.









GOP, I have met a few operators (tier one). And yes, they are patient and disciplined, and they are very good at their jobs. But that does not change the fact that they are war junkies. I don't see how you can be in a tier one unit without being addicted to  combat high (from training or missions). And they do enjoy hunting down terrorists, if they didn't they wouldn't be in those units and they would't be any good at their jobs. Would I say that tier one guys are sort of a breed apart? Yes, but they very much enjoy what they do....On another note, what is this about Vietnam. There are only 2 documented atrocities where US soldiers wiped out villages. GOP, check online and google "Vietnam War Myths". Some of the findings will surprise you. They surprised me. The media would have you believe that most of American soldiers in Vietnam were drug addicted, psycho pathic conscripts who didn't want to be there. In fact, 75 % of all the men and women who served in Nam were volunteers. Anyways check it out, it will dispel some of the myths of the Vietnam war, and after reading it you will respect these soldiers who gave incredible service and came home to be called baby killers a lot more.


The tier one guys I've met all struck me as incredibly normal, friendly people. Granted, I didn't ask them about anything related to the military/politics/my goals, or anything like that, but I absolutely would not classify these people as war junkies. OK, I think the problem here is not what you mean, but the term you used. Sure they are addicted to the combat high/adrenaline rush, as most SOF operators are. But, I don't believe they 'enjoy' taking lives...hunting down terrorists is one thing, but I don't think they enjoy the actual deed of killing them. Many may be extremely hardened to it, I don't know, but I don't think any reasonable person ever enjoys taking life.

The Vietnam thing wasn't meant for the average soldier or SOF guy,  but to the rare physcopath did kill civs. Example,  in the book "Never Fight fair" about SEAL operations, one SEAL unit in Vietnam was sent to a free fire zone to conduct an op against a tax collecter who was stealing money from the villages to fund the VC. Anyway, they spotted  some people walking down the trail toward them, and it became obvious that it was a woman with a child. Well, one of the SEALs wanted to kill them anyway, and had to be ordered not to fire his weapon. That same SEAL killed other civilians before and had a reputation. Anyway, that same SEAL was arrested when his unit got back from Vietnam f
 
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USN-MID       4/2/2007 4:22:44 AM
Depends on what you think of as a "junkie"...but in my book someone who keep his cool under stress is just a cool cat professional, not an adrenaline chasing war junkie.
 
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Yimmy       4/2/2007 6:53:26 AM
Anyone who posts regularly on this site could be called a war junkie, although it would likely be the wrong conclusion.

Myself, I think all these current gucci terms like "operator" and "tier 1", are all a load of "bollocks".

We're all human.

 
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