Military History
|
How To Make War
|
Wars Around the World
Rules of Use
How to Behave on an Internet Forum
Commandos and Special Operations
Discussion Board
Return to Topic Page
Subject:
CT unit or SOF ?
bravoss
3/29/2007 3:24:57 PM
After finishing the studies I thought about joing a police ct unit or joing the military and later trying to get to SOF unit. what is more challenging, and what are your advices on which one should i go for? the plus of the police might be that i won't travel alot and probably the i'll have a bigger paycheck, altough its not really crucial for me.
Quote
Reply
Show Only Poster Name and Title
Newest to Oldest
Pages:
PREV
1
2
3
4
NEXT
mough
3/30/2007 2:24:37 PM
Yes the UKSF(SAS&SBS) were given pay raises, also they could take 6 month active sabbaticals, as they called them, basically go off for a few motnths to work for a PMC, make their money and come back and slot back into a squadron, no questions asked.
Hadn't heard about the second part of that, though it makes sense. Last I'd heard from a friend who's TA over there (though not in a UKSF unit, so may have been wrong anyway) was that if you left to go contract, even from the reserve SAS units, you had to get your rucksack ready to go back through selection . . .
no you have to re-do selection if you've been gone for a year+, which has happened from time to time, guys leave realise they miss it, and ask to come back.
Quote
Reply
GOP
3/30/2007 3:11:19 PM
We will never officially know how much CAG or ST6 operators are making, as they are officially denied by our government. I'd also say they are in the 100k range. It's glaringly obvious to me though that the CAG and ST6 types aren't in it for the money (the PMC's aren't getting many CAG/ST6 guys)...anyone who is willing to go through pure h*ll to get to that level isn't interested in making alot of money. That lifestyle ain't for everyone...if you are a family man type or want to earn alot of cash, then that business ain't for you in my opinion.
Sidenote - I can't stand the whole "DEVGRU" thing... they are SEAL Team 6 (or ST6). Calling ST6 "DEVGRU" is like calling CAG/SFOD-D "Boeing engineers"...it's generic and obviously bs. So let's drop the whole DEVGRU thing and keep ST6. Sorry, just a pet peeve of mine.
The guys in JSOC make the same base pay as everyone else in the military in the same pay grade, plus most have been to just about all the schools that produce special duty pay. It's still not boatloads of money, though, which is why CAG is very rank heavy and fast tracks guys to get them that rank.
The real change for Tier One and other SOF units has been the recent introduction of very large reenlistment bonuses designed to keep guys from going to PMCs.
If you look at the actual number of guys in CAG and ST6, then PMC attrition has been as issue for both groups, even though they are not the bulk of PMC contractors. Those guys don't tend to be in it for the money (anyone who is made a major mistake by ever joining the US military -- at least until the boom in the PMC business), but that can change for less than greedy reasons when you've got a mortgage, two kids needing college tuition, alimony from your first marriage, etc. to deal with.
So are the Tier 1 guys close to the $100k level you think? I just couldn't personally see the Tier 1/SMU guys leaving their units for the PMC's. I mean, you'll be making more money, but you'll be in the same country as your former team and they'll be kicking in doors and doing the HSLD stuff, while the PMC guys will be gaurding a checkpoint or building (or possibly doing diplomatic protection at the SMU level). I can understand some of the guys leaving for the PMC if they have alot of bills/a family, etc...but honestly I can't see most of the Tier 1 guys having a family (they are gone 10 months out of the year in peace time, and can be gone for 18-24 months straight on deployment, they have wild hours, etc). I think it takes a completely different person to be in Tier 1 units than in vanilla SOF, because at that level it's all about job performance and complete commitment. But hey, this is just a job. If I had a family and I felt I wasn't seeing them nough or wasn't making enough money to support them, then I wouldn't care what unit I was leaving...I'd come home and get a more stable high paying job somewhere.
Quote
Reply
dirtykraut
3/30/2007 7:13:09 PM
haha
nicely said. the bad thing is that i don't live in the United States.
One of the reasons i'm studying is that if i fail and dont get the job
i wanted, i can still find another good job, altough it might be the
office job which i wouldn't really like to do. To me, it seem that it's
easier to join police CT units than Army SF units primarily because
police units are orientated exclusively to counter terrorism and SF
units do lots of other operations, so i think the training is probably
rougher(survival,etc)..
Where do you live (if it's okay to ask)? I'm kind of surprised about the idea that cops get bigger paychecks -- if you factor in both special duty pay as well as the kind of re-enlistment bonuses the US military is currently paying for special operations personnel, I'd be surprised to hear of any law enforcement officers here in the US that are making more than operator-type SOF personnel.
Horsesoldier, this is going a little off topic, but your post made me remember an article I read about the SAS getting a raise. Supposedly, an SAS soldier now gets close to 100k a year. The reason they did this (supposedly) was to lower the attrition rate as many SAS guys were going to work for PMC's for a lot more money. Is there any truth to that?Also, if there is, I would assume that CAG and DEVGRU all got raises? (As they are the most valuable operators in the US arsenal and the US can hardly afford to lose them to PMC's.) And Mough, I am sure you could probably answer that question as well (if your reading this).
Yes the UKSF(SAS&SBS) were given pay raises, also they could take 6 month active sabbaticals, as they called them, basically go off for a few motnths to work for a PMC, make their money and come back and slot back into a squadron, no questions asked.
That's a neat way of doing things, I would never have thought about sabbatacls.....Now this is a stupid question that you may not be able to answer, but it has to be asked; does the regiment have the right to tax some of that money earned in PMC's, since it was the regiment who aprroved the sabbatical?
Quote
Reply
dirtykraut
3/30/2007 7:22:48 PM
I was going to contribute to this thread, but I'm a little too irritated and sleep deprived. I just hope to God that if terrorists attack a target somewhere in this country that ST6, DEVGRU, CAG, HRT, or whatever the hell else they call those "Tier One" teams arrive on the scene before I have to do something with my apparently subpar, less than "Tier One" skills and get somebody hurt. Given the size of this country and the laws regard the military use in law enforcement matters, I'm sure the military and military CT teams should be on these scene within a day or so. Just enough time to load the victims into body bags.
"Tell my momma I did my best. Bury me in the leaning rest."
You know, I never looked at it that way...but your right. Who the hell says SWAT can't do the job they do just because they aren't tier one enough. In fact, I would rather have SWAT rescue me in a domestic terrorist situation, as they would probably have greater concern for my safety (let's face it, tier one guys are kind of war junkies, they would actually enjoy taking down the terrorists)...Having said that, I know for a fact that coppers get a hard on busting people. (mostly for small things like speeding tickets). I was just in Boston last weekend and the coppers were practially hiding in the trees like the damn charlies did in Vietnam. I have never seen more tickets handed out in my life.
Quote
Reply
GOP
3/30/2007 7:57:10 PM
(let's face it, tier one guys are kind of war junkies, they would actually enjoy taking down the terrorists)
Have you ever met any tier one guys? You obviously don't know the job description. Tier 1 guys are extremely patient and extremely well disciplined people. Their career, alot of the time, is spent in a "hurry up and wait" situation, in which some scumbag has hijacked an aircraft and they get ready to go, then higher ups say "wait...let's negotiate a little more"...they are also older and more mature than the young guys who come into the feeder units, because they've been there and done (they just happen to be the most profecient operators in that country). Also, what makes you think they would enjoy taking down terrorists, like they are some kind of scumbag Vietnam war physopaths whom owed down villages? They ain't like that, their only goal is completion of the mission...not killing others. If the mission could be accomplished through negotiations, then that is a much better deal and they understand that. Hollywood may make these guys out to be war junkies, but the truth is the complete opposite. Sure, they may want to get the opportunity to do their job for real, but killing isn't their goal whatsoever.
Quote
Reply
dirtykraut
4/1/2007 8:16:51 PM
(let's face it, tier one guys are kind of war junkies, they would actually enjoy taking down the terrorists)
Have you ever met any tier one guys? You obviously don't know the job description. Tier 1 guys are extremely patient and extremely well disciplined people. Their career, alot of the time, is spent in a "hurry up and wait" situation, in which some scumbag has hijacked an aircraft and they get ready to go, then higher ups say "wait...let's negotiate a little more"...they are also older and more mature than the young guys who come into the feeder units, because they've been there and done (they just happen to be the most profecient operators in that country). Also, what makes you think they would enjoy taking down terrorists, like they are some kind of scumbag Vietnam war physopaths whom owed down villages? They ain't like that, their only goal is completion of the mission...not killing others. If the mission could be accomplished through negotiations, then that is a much better deal and they understand that. Hollywood may make these guys out to be war junkies, but the truth is the complete opposite. Sure, they may want to get the opportunity to do their job for real, but killing isn't their goal whatsoever.
GOP, I have met a few operators (tier one). And yes, they are patient and disciplined, and they are very good at their jobs. But that does not change the fact that they are war junkies. I don't see how you can be in a tier one unit without being addicted to combat high (from training or missions). And they do enjoy hunting down terrorists, if they didn't they wouldn't be in those units and they would't be any good at their jobs. Would I say that tier one guys are sort of a breed apart? Yes, but they very much enjoy what they do....On another note, what is this about Vietnam. There are only 2 documented atrocities where US soldiers wiped out villages. GOP, check online and google "Vietnam War Myths". Some of the findings will surprise you. They surprised me. The media would have you believe that most of American soldiers in Vietnam were drug addicted, psycho pathic conscripts who didn't want to be there. In fact, 75 % of all the men and women who served in Nam were volunteers. Anyways check it out, it will dispel some of the myths of the Vietnam war, and after reading it you will respect these soldiers who gave incredible service and came home to be called baby killers a lot more.
Quote
Reply
GOP
4/1/2007 9:20:20 PM
(let's face it, tier one guys are kind of war junkies, they would actually enjoy taking down the terrorists)
Have you ever met any tier one guys? You obviously don't know the job description. Tier 1 guys are extremely patient and extremely well disciplined people. Their career, alot of the time, is spent in a "hurry up and wait" situation, in which some scumbag has hijacked an aircraft and they get ready to go, then higher ups say "wait...let's negotiate a little more"...they are also older and more mature than the young guys who come into the feeder units, because they've been there and done (they just happen to be the most profecient operators in that country). Also, what makes you think they would enjoy taking down terrorists, like they are some kind of scumbag Vietnam war physopaths whom owed down villages? They ain't like that, their only goal is completion of the mission...not killing others. If the mission could be accomplished through negotiations, then that is a much better deal and they understand that. Hollywood may make these guys out to be war junkies, but the truth is the complete opposite. Sure, they may want to get the opportunity to do their job for real, but killing isn't their goal whatsoever.
GOP, I have met a few operators (tier one). And yes, they are patient and disciplined, and they are very good at their jobs. But that does not change the fact that they are war junkies. I don't see how you can be in a tier one unit without being addicted to combat high (from training or missions). And they do enjoy hunting down terrorists, if they didn't they wouldn't be in those units and they would't be any good at their jobs. Would I say that tier one guys are sort of a breed apart? Yes, but they very much enjoy what they do....On another note, what is this about Vietnam. There are only 2 documented atrocities where US soldiers wiped out villages. GOP, check online and google "Vietnam War Myths". Some of the findings will surprise you. They surprised me. The media would have you believe that most of American soldiers in Vietnam were drug addicted, psycho pathic conscripts who didn't want to be there. In fact, 75 % of all the men and women who served in Nam were volunteers. Anyways check it out, it will dispel some of the myths of the Vietnam war, and after reading it you will respect these soldiers who gave incredible service and came home to be called baby killers a lot more.
The tier one guys I've met all struck me as incredibly normal, friendly people. Granted, I didn't ask them about anything related to the military/politics/my goals, or anything like that, but I absolutely would not classify these people as war junkies. OK, I think the problem here is not what you mean, but the term you used. Sure they are addicted to the combat high/adrenaline rush, as most SOF operators are. But, I don't believe they 'enjoy' taking lives...hunting down terrorists is one thing, but I don't think they enjoy the actual deed of killing them. Many may be extremely hardened to it, I don't know, but I don't think any reasonable person ever enjoys taking life.
The Vietnam thing wasn't meant for the average soldier or SOF guy, but to the rare physcopath did kill civs. Example, in the book "Never Fight fair" about SEAL operations, one SEAL unit in Vietnam was sent to a free fire zone to conduct an op against a tax collecter who was stealing money from the villages to fund the VC. Anyway, they spotted some people walking down the trail toward them, and it became obvious that it was a woman with a child. Well, one of the SEALs wanted to kill them anyway, and had to be ordered not to fire his weapon. That same SEAL killed other civilians before and had a reputation. Anyway, that same SEAL was arrested when his unit got back from Vietnam for raping a woman on the break while he was on his lunch break. There were physchopaths in some units, even the SOF units.
Quote
Reply
dirtykraut
4/2/2007 12:19:23 AM
(let's face it, tier one guys are kind of war junkies, they would actually enjoy taking down the terrorists)
Have you ever met any tier one guys? You obviously don't know the job description. Tier 1 guys are extremely patient and extremely well disciplined people. Their career, alot of the time, is spent in a "hurry up and wait" situation, in which some scumbag has hijacked an aircraft and they get ready to go, then higher ups say "wait...let's negotiate a little more"...they are also older and more mature than the young guys who come into the feeder units, because they've been there and done (they just happen to be the most profecient operators in that country). Also, what makes you think they would enjoy taking down terrorists, like they are some kind of scumbag Vietnam war physopaths whom owed down villages? They ain't like that, their only goal is completion of the mission...not killing others. If the mission could be accomplished through negotiations, then that is a much better deal and they understand that. Hollywood may make these guys out to be war junkies, but the truth is the complete opposite. Sure, they may want to get the opportunity to do their job for real, but killing isn't their goal whatsoever.
GOP, I have met a few operators (tier one). And yes, they are patient and disciplined, and they are very good at their jobs. But that does not change the fact that they are war junkies. I don't see how you can be in a tier one unit without being addicted to combat high (from training or missions). And they do enjoy hunting down terrorists, if they didn't they wouldn't be in those units and they would't be any good at their jobs. Would I say that tier one guys are sort of a breed apart? Yes, but they very much enjoy what they do....On another note, what is this about Vietnam. There are only 2 documented atrocities where US soldiers wiped out villages. GOP, check online and google "Vietnam War Myths". Some of the findings will surprise you. They surprised me. The media would have you believe that most of American soldiers in Vietnam were drug addicted, psycho pathic conscripts who didn't want to be there. In fact, 75 % of all the men and women who served in Nam were volunteers. Anyways check it out, it will dispel some of the myths of the Vietnam war, and after reading it you will respect these soldiers who gave incredible service and came home to be called baby killers a lot more.
The tier one guys I've met all struck me as incredibly normal, friendly people. Granted, I didn't ask them about anything related to the military/politics/my goals, or anything like that, but I absolutely would not classify these people as war junkies. OK, I think the problem here is not what you mean, but the term you used. Sure they are addicted to the combat high/adrenaline rush, as most SOF operators are. But, I don't believe they 'enjoy' taking lives...hunting down terrorists is one thing, but I don't think they enjoy the actual deed of killing them. Many may be extremely hardened to it, I don't know, but I don't think any reasonable person ever enjoys taking life.
The Vietnam thing wasn't meant for the average soldier or SOF guy, but to the rare physcopath did kill civs. Example, in the book "Never Fight fair" about SEAL operations, one SEAL unit in Vietnam was sent to a free fire zone to conduct an op against a tax collecter who was stealing money from the villages to fund the VC. Anyway, they spotted some people walking down the trail toward them, and it became obvious that it was a woman with a child. Well, one of the SEALs wanted to kill them anyway, and had to be ordered not to fire his weapon. That same SEAL killed other civilians before and had a reputation. Anyway, that same SEAL was arrested when his unit got back from Vietnam f
Quote
Reply
USN-MID
4/2/2007 4:22:44 AM
Depends on what you think of as a "junkie"...but in my book someone who keep his cool under stress is just a cool cat professional, not an adrenaline chasing war junkie.
Quote
Reply
Yimmy
4/2/2007 6:53:26 AM
Anyone who posts regularly on this site could be called a war junkie, although it would likely be the wrong conclusion.
Myself, I think all these current gucci terms like "operator" and "tier 1", are all a load of "bollocks".
We're all human.
Quote
Reply
PREV
1
2
3
4
NEXT
Latest
News
Most
Read
Most
Commented
Hot
Topics
KOREA: Send In The Serfs
INFORMATION WARFARE: Be Careful What You Say
ELECTRONIC WEAPONS:
COUNTER-TERRORISM: Is Terrorizing Terrorists A War Crime?
ISRAEL: Go On Syria, Make My Day
NAVAL AIR: Keeping The Chinese Blind
LOGISTICS: The Flaw In North Korean War Plans
LEADERSHIP: Shut Up You Whore,
WEAPONS: Bigger Is No Longer Better
NIGERIA: Blitzkrieg Breaks Boko Haram
WARPLANES: Turkish UAV Exports
CONGO: Peacekeeping Becomes War
NAVAL AIR: Mixing Droids And Pilots In The Same Squadron
SUBMARINES: The Chinese Plan To Catch Up
MURPHY'S LAW: The Sad Death Of Euro Hawk
INDONESIA: Islamic Terrorists Down But Not Gone
BALKANS: Serbs And Albanians Sort Of Make Peace
MURPHY'S LAW: Searching For Mister Big
COUNTER-TERRORISM: The Other Al Qaeda
WEAPONS: Russia Resists A Revolutionary AK
SPACE: Chinese KillSats Threaten GPS Network
SYRIA: Iran Shows How It Is Done
NAVAL AIR: Replacing Carriers With Cruise Missiles
NAVAL AIR: China Learns From The Masters
ARTILLERY: The Tale Of The North Korean TELs
COUNTER-TERRORISM: A Taliban Cry For Help
MYANMAR: China Tries To Be The Good Guy
WARPLANES: Rafale Fades Some More
MURPHY'S LAW: A Melancholy Milestone For MiG
MURPHY'S LAW: China Bans Military Hotrods
Subscribe to Our RSS Feed
Leadership: Shut Up You Whore,
WARS Israel: Go On Syria, Make My Day
Naval Air: Keeping The Chinese Blind
Logistics: The Flaw In North Korean War Plans
Weapons: Bigger Is No Longer Better
WARS Nigeria: Blitzkrieg Breaks Boko Haram
Submarines: The Chinese Plan To Catch Up
WARS Syria: Iran Shows How It Is Done
Murphy's Law: The Sad Death Of Euro Hawk
Naval Air: Mixing Droids And Pilots In The Same Squadron
Naval Air: Replacing Carriers With Cruise Missiles
Weapons: Russia Resists A Revolutionary AK
Space: Chinese KillSats Threaten GPS Network
Warplanes: Turkish UAV Exports
Naval Air: China Learns From The Masters
WARS Congo: Peacekeeping Becomes War
Murphy's Law: Searching For Mister Big
Artillery: The Tale Of The North Korean TELs
Counter-Terrorism: A Taliban Cry For Help
Counter-Terrorism: The Other Al Qaeda
WARS Indonesia: Islamic Terrorists Down But Not Gone
WARS Balkans: Serbs And Albanians Sort Of Make Peace
Warplanes: Rafale Fades Some More
WARS Myanmar: China Tries To Be The Good Guy
Murphy's Law: A Melancholy Milestone For MiG
NAVAL AIR: Replacing Carriers With Cruise Missiles
WARPLANES: Rafale Fades Some More
COUNTER-TERRORISM: A Taliban Cry For Help
YEMEN: Death Squads Gone Wild
NAVAL AIR: Mixing Droids And Pilots In The Same Squadron
CONGO: Peacekeeping Becomes War
ARTILLERY: The Tale Of The North Korean TELs
ISRAEL: Go On Syria, Make My Day
BALKANS: Serbs And Albanians Sort Of Make Peace
INDONESIA: Islamic Terrorists Down But Not Gone
MURPHY'S LAW: The Sad Death Of Euro Hawk
LOGISTICS: The Flaw In North Korean War Plans
COUNTER-TERRORISM: The Other Al Qaeda
SUPPORT: The Chinese Air Force Underground
SPACE: Chinese KillSats Threaten GPS Network
WEAPONS: Russia Resists A Revolutionary AK
MURPHY'S LAW: Searching For Mister Big
NAVAL AIR: Keeping The Chinese Blind
SUBMARINES: The Chinese Plan To Catch Up
WEAPONS: Bigger Is No Longer Better
Dirty Little Links: News Links.
Naval Air: Replacing Carriers With Cruise Missiles
Naval Air: Mixing Droids And Pilots In The Same Squadron
On Point: Benghazi Revisited: Pinocchios for the Dead
Israel: Go On Syria, Make My Day
Books of Interest
The Guns at Last Light: The War in Western Europe, 1944-1945 (Liberation Trilogy)
Fallujah Awakens: Marines, Sheikhs, and the Battle Against al Qaeda (Blue and Gold)
SPECIAL OPERATIONS IN THE AMERICAN REVOLUTION
Bunker Hill: A City, a Siege, a Revolution
The Way of the Knife: The CIA, a Secret Army, and a War at the Ends of the Earth
From Amazon
News
How To Make War
Wars Around The World
Austin Bay's On Point
StrategyTalk
Dirty Little Secrets
Features
Al Nofi's CIC
Prediction Market
Wargames
Measure of Respect
On War and Warfare
Videos
Photos
Jokes
Community
Military Discussion Boards
Military Jokes
Military Photos
Military Book Reviews
Military Movie Reviews
StrategyPage
Subscribe
Login
Feedback
About Us
Search
Account Manager
Advertise With Us
Search