CQB

Military History \| How To Make War \| Wars Around the World	Rules of Use	How to Behave on an Internet Forum
Commandos and Special Operations Discussion Board
Return to Topic Page

Subject: CQB
GOP 6/27/2007 6:56:43 PM

Whatsup guys? First, let me say this: I realize I'm am the guy who makes almost all of the threads on this site, so I apologize for that. I'm too lazy to find another website and build up a solid repuatation, and SOCNET I believe has rejected my membership twice now (I most certainly wouldn't post there though as the BTDT types would own me, they don't seem to like newbs lol). So anyone, here is the question: [b]What how would you guys say the CQB tactics between military special operation groups and law enforcement special tactic units differ?[/b] I realize that the ROE's are different, but I'm referring more to the actual door kicking, room clearing, H2H tactics. Are they basically the same, or do they have different doctrines, etc? I realize you will probably see a major difference in skill when comparing a unit like CAG to a local part time SRT team, but the methods are close to the same right? Also, to the guys who have actually seen these guys train, how would you compare the CQB ability of a military SOF unit like CAG/DEVGRU/MARSOC DA platoon to a law enforcement Special tactics unit like FBI HRT/LAPD SWAT?

Quote Reply

Show Only Poster Name and Title Newest to Oldest

Pages: PREV 1 2 3 NEXT

RockyMTNClimber Multiple Threats 6/30/2007 10:57:18 AM

Think about the super bad situations like Virginia Tech, other school shootings and hostage takings, the DC snipers, and the LA bank robbery shootout. How many perps? One to three, right? And on your home ground. So it's not like a part time team has fly deep into a denied area like North Vietnam to assault Son Tay Prison against a superior force.<Longrifle

It is my impression that operations focus on multiple threats more than in days of yore (say the 1980's). My question is: is it more prevalent for the baddies to travel in packs? We never had car jackings in my day but now it seems these guys are working in teams of 3 and up with security and a get-a-way driver as well. I did a friday night ride along recently in Colorado Springs where they made 2 separate stops on pharmaceutical distributors who had 4 guys in each car.

It seems like the wild west to me and a solo cruiser is a lonely place to be.

Check Six

Rocky

Quote Reply

smitty237 6/30/2007 10:46:06 PM

Most SWAT teams in this country are part-time teams. Obviously, for the most part full time teams are going to operate at a higher level than part-time teams due to the amount of training they do and their operational tempo. This is not, however, universal. There are some piss poor full time teams out there, and there are some crack part-time teams. I led a search warrant on a house last year in which we coordinated with a full-time team. When the operation was over the sergeant of the narcotics unit was surprised to hear that we were a part-time team. I don't know if he was blowing smoke up our butts or not, but we considered it high praise.

We are only able to train one day a week for eight hours, but we try to make the most of our training time. I endured some training scenarios that we were far tougher than some actual ops, but there is no training that can substitute for the real thing. The amount and intensity of training along with a high operational tempo is what sets full-time police SWAT teams apart. This is not to say that all full-time teams operate at the same level. Some cities use their SWAT teams to perform special assignments like surveillance or directed patrol in high crime areas, while other cities even use them as "spares" to fill in holes in road patrol. Much of this is because the police brass either don't understand SWAT's role, or are downright hostile to it. I've seen this personally on my small department.

I firmly believe that high end police SWAT teams could perform as well or better than military special ops teams on some specific missions, such as barricaded subjects or high risk warrant services. I also believe that police SWAT teams like LAPD, Dallas, or Miami could be quickly brought up to speed on many DEVGRU or CAG counter terrorist and DA operations. What sets military spec ops teams significantly apart in my opinion is infiltration and extraction. Dallas SWAT can be trained to clear a building as well as GSG-9 or MARSOC, but they can't be easily trained to conduct a HALO jump into a foreign country and then use land navigation techniques to hike a dozen clicks at night across mountainous terrain to take down a terrorist safe house. It would also be tough to teach a tier one SWAT team to do specific military tasks like calling in air support or artillery. There are military veterans on some teams that could do it, but it would be too time intensive to train all SWAT operators to do this competently.

I would have to believe that room clearing tactics for spec ops and SWAT teams are similar (SWAT teams were originally comprised of military veterans), but the ROE would dictate the tactics to some extent. SWAT teams are dedicated to the preservation of life, while for military spec ops teams this goal is secondary to accomplishing the mission objectives. This is an important distinction. The same goes for hand to hand combat. For the most part police defensive tactics are designed to subdue the opponent, not kill them or incapacitate them.

Quote Reply

smitty237 6/30/2007 10:49:09 PM

Crap. I wish we trained one day a week. It's actually only one day a MONTH, which is pretty standard for a part-time team. The Sheriff's department SWAT team in my county actually trains twice a month, but you won't find many part-time teams that train more than that.

Quote Reply

longrifle 7/1/2007 1:01:08 AM

One of the first - if not the very first - SWAT units to exist was a part time unit: the Reserve Unit of the Shanghai Municipal Police. It was started by W.E. Fairbairn.

My understanding is that it was sort of a combination SWAT and riot control unit. E. A. Sykes was a sniper in the unit.

Shanghai, China was probably the toughest police beat in the world in the '20s and '30s. Some think there's never been a tougher police beat anywhere at anytime.

Quote Reply

GOP 7/1/2007 4:55:19 AM

Guys, thanks alot for the answers, I've gained a ton of information and I really appreciate it. I know I'm a major pest on this forum, asking alot of questions and bothering you BTDT's here. Anyway, what do you guys feel the best path for me to go is? Obviously college is an absolute must. However, do you feel with my goal of being on a Tier 1 SWAT unit that it would be bettter for me to get on at a PD with a part-time team and gain experience and go from there, or should I try to get on in a big city PD and try to get on their SWAT/SRT unit from there?

Also, I'm not sure about how tight lipped the selection courses are, but can you go into detail about your selection process and what was required? I totally understand if it is a secret selection course. Any books you guys would recommend?

Quote Reply

longrifle 7/1/2007 5:55:24 AM

Have medical concerns eliminated the military option for you?

Quote Reply

GOP 7/1/2007 2:23:47 PM

Yeah, I believe so. The bottom line is they don't accept guys with adrenal gland issues, no matter how lame that is. I find it crazy, because I have beat the associated anxiety disorder and I take meds that do not inhibit me whatsoever and actually increase performance, so it's hard for me to understand why they won't accept a guy like me who is highly motivated during the GWOT. Yet the Navy will accept a girl with a drug history and a juvenile record, who honestly sucks at life. So I'm sort of bitter about it, but I definitely can't blame NSW for not wanting to take a risk on a guy like me. They have plenty of great warriors who are completing BUD/S and going into the Teams, so they don't need me. So now the goal is law enforcement special tactics, even though I'm not sure how certain units would respond to a guy like me.

Quote Reply

longrifle 7/1/2007 6:38:05 PM

"Anyway, what do you guys feel the best path for me to go is? Obviously college is an absolute must."

Since you can't be a cop until you're 21 you might as well get some college in while you're waiting. The composition and technical writing courses are a must. You do a lost of documenting in police work.

Besides the academic curriculum, you may have the chance to take some self defense courses on campus. Also, take the time to do a ride along with some department on a Friday or Saturday night once or twice a month.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"However, do you feel with my goal of being on a Tier 1 SWAT unit that it would be bettter for me to get on at a PD with a part-time team and gain experience and go from there, or should I try to get on in a big city PD and try to get on their SWAT/SRT unit from there?"

No matter which way you go you need to become a good patrol officer first. And during that time don't constantly be "SWAT this, and SWAT that." It will annoy some of the cops who aren't interested in SWAT. Concentrate on being a top performer in your current assignment instead of always thinking about the future assignment you hope for.

You may, or may not, have to do some time in a smaller department before being hired by a larger one. But having SWAT experience on a smaller PD won't get you onto a big city SWAT team any sooner. You will still have to prove yourself as a patrol officer in a larger agency. You can't be a lateral hire just for SWAT.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"Also, I'm not sure about how tight lipped the selection courses are, but can you go into detail about your selection process and what was required? I totally understand if it is a secret selection course."

I would expect an oral board, PT test, and maybe a practical. I'm not really the man to talk to about this one. I've never been on the entry element and I was just sort of "scouted" by the sniper element leader. He had confidence in me as a patrolman and knew I was a vet who liked rifle shooting and hunting. I passed the PT test and was invited to train. After a six month probationary period I was eligible to be called out. That probably wouldn't be done in a larger department.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Any books you guys would recommend?"

Since you've expressed an interest in FBI HRT check out "Cold Zero" by Christopher Whitcomb. It's written from a sniper's perspective but I think you will enjoy it anyway. Whitcomb was at Ruby Ridge and Waco. He was on a team with a lot of military veterans but was not a vet himself.

Quote Reply

ChdNorm 7/23/2007 5:01:14 PM

I'm not a SWAT guy (in fact ... borderline anti-SWAT). But, I can outline a career path for you to get there with one of the teams you mentioned.

First of all, as already said ... go to college first. To get on with DPD you only need 45 hrs to qualify. But, to be really competitive later on you need a bachelors. It will be far easier to finish your degree while you're still there, than to going back after you're hired. When I started, my educational requirement was waived by being prior service. I had to get my degree going either nights (which meant being home just long enough to sleep during the day) or regular day classes (that I'd have to miss for court as often as not). It's just too big a pain in the ass to not go ahead and spend the extra year to get your degree all in one shot. Whatever you do though, do NOT major in Criminal Justice. It's a worthless degree outside of police work. Go for something general like business admin. or something. Hell ... even art. Anything but criminal justice!

As far as prior military service goes .... Air Force security police and Coast Guard seem to be the best leading into a career in law enforcement. I don't know if you've looked into them or not, but you might. One of them might offer a waiver for your problem as well.

The application process for DPD is not really all the stringent or difficult. Nothing that should disqualify you. If you don't have a felony or class A Misdemeanor criminal record, can pass a fairly flexible credit check, and background investigation (you are who you say you are and the available records support your clean history), you should be fine. Dallas in particular is hurting for qualified candidates as we speak. Last I saw we were 300 short, with that gap continuing to grow over the next five years.

Just about an automatic rubber stamp for hiring is being bilingual. Especially Spanish and sign language, but some of the Asian languages as well. I know Vietnamese is one of the criticals right now. Being fluent in Spanish is so desirable ... we have even run thru a couple of academy classes made up completely of recruits from Puerto Rico that came to Dallas just for the job. Being bilingual is also worth $150 a month bonus pay if you test for it and pass (passing being about second year HS Spanish level).

Upon hiring, you'd attend a 34 week basic academy followed by 24 weeks with a series of FTOs in patrol. You'd then be given your first assignment (on a SWAT track that'd be patrol). You become eligible for promotion and special assignment after two years from that date. That two years seems to weed out a lot for one reason or another. A study not too long ago showed that about one in three academy graduates quit before reaching two years of service. So, in those first two years ... if you turn out to be a competent and capable officer you will be noticed by those watching from above.

There really is no clear cut guaranteed route to get to SWAT from there. Blue politics definitely plays a part. If you get a SWAT type for a break-in partner doing a tour back in patrol (most officers rotate in and out of special assignments every couple of years) your foot is in the door. Regardless, everybody is always watching for standouts to recruit to their favored unit. Being as short as we are at the moment, there is definitely a bit of competition for the brighter and more capable younger officers when they come up for special assignment and/or promotion.

One of the best ways to get noticed, is to go where the action is. In Dallas, that means working Southeast or Southwest patrol divisions. As luck would have it, those are the divisions nobody in their right minds actually wants to go. Out of my class, only two of us actually volunteered for SE patrol. By two or three years into it I could tell a huge difference between the experience level of those in my class that went to NE or Far North, and those that went SE or SW. Those that spend their formative years in the divisions with much higher activity progress much faster than those that spend most of their time taking burglary reports up north. A point that isn't missed when Capts and Lts go trolling for new officers to poach for their units.

One point I think might as well be brought up, is going to be your lack of prior military service. The career law enforcement community can kind of be divided into two groups ... those with military service and those that come out of college. Most of the older officers, who are now in command positions, came up thru the ranks as prior service military. In the 90's, prior military service was actually a rare thing for a recruit. There was a remarkable attitude from the more senior officers, who were mostly Vi

Quote Reply

GOP 7/24/2007 1:41:06 AM

I'm not a SWAT guy (in fact ... borderline anti-SWAT). But, I can outline a career path for you to get there with one of the teams you mentioned.

One point I think might as well be brought up, is going to be your lack of prior military service. The career law enforcement community can kind of be divided in

Quote Reply

PREV 1 2 3 NEXT