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Subject: CQB
GOP    6/27/2007 6:56:43 PM
Whatsup guys? First, let me say this: I realize I'm am the guy who makes almost all of the threads on this site, so I apologize for that. I'm too lazy to find another website and build up a solid repuatation, and SOCNET I believe has rejected my membership twice now (I most certainly wouldn't post there though as the BTDT types would own me, they don't seem to like newbs lol). So anyone, here is the question: [b]What how would you guys say the CQB tactics between military special operation groups and law enforcement special tactic units differ?[/b] I realize that the ROE's are different, but I'm referring more to the actual door kicking, room clearing, H2H tactics. Are they basically the same, or do they have different doctrines, etc? I realize you will probably see a major difference in skill when comparing a unit like CAG to a local part time SRT team, but the methods are close to the same right? Also, to the guys who have actually seen these guys train, how would you compare the CQB ability of a military SOF unit like CAG/DEVGRU/MARSOC DA platoon to a law enforcement Special tactics unit like FBI HRT/LAPD SWAT?
 
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ChdNorm       7/26/2007 2:08:47 AM
"Yeah, College is a must. I already sort of have my major picked out (exercise physiology), but I am not very aware of the process yet. I'm a Senior this year, so I'll be visiting colleges at the end of the year and of course talking to guidance counselers etc. Does it matter what college you go to? The college I plan on going to is a smaller college (JSU), but it's pretty solid academically." GOP

It really doesn't matter what college you go to, as long as you go. It's not like many departments are having it come down to hiring the Princeton grad over the kid from MIT. The degree you earn isn't really important either. That is why I recommend against getting a criminal justice degree. The only thing that really matters is just getting the diploma in order to show you're willing to do a little work and aren't a complete idiot.
 
"I am pretty sure the military thing won't work out. While I'm not 100% sure, I am pretty sure it isn't gonna happen unfortunately. I'm not really sure who to contact to findout to make it official, but everything I have seen says I am disqualified. At least as far as NSW and most combat arms units are involved. The USCG would be an awesome option as I love swimming, boating, etc, but still not sure if MEPS would accept me." GOP

If I were you, and seriously considering this path, I would definately look into the Coast Guard. I'm not sure what MOS it is, and what (if any) the in-service requirements etc are, but I do know they send people thru FLETC. You won't get that in any other branch of the service (as far as I know anyway). That'd be some damn good training and experiance to have when you start out hiking up that road to SWAT in a civilian department.
 
"As far as being Bilingual, I'm about to start Arabic. I should be able to finish by the time I graduate High school. I got a late start, but the beauty of homeschooling (ugh, I hate telling people I homeschool lol) will allow me to focus more time/effort into that so I should be able to get it done. Not sure if Arabic is very important at a police department, but I decided on Arabic because it appears to be needed at the federal level (if I ever decide that the FBI is the correct path for me). "GOP

Arabic is obviously a very desirable language. I'd have to recommend studying a little Spanish in addition to, or even instead of, Arabc though. From the law enforcement perspective, you really just have to have at least a basic knowledge of Spanish anymore. There are really two benefits, as far as I see, to learning spanish. The first is to get hired on in the first place. With even basic conversational Spanish you're a shoe in. Even when talking about the federal level, the Spanish community is the fastest growing segment of the population. Presently, and probably for some time to come, the need for spanish speakers in law enforcement outstrips the resources available. The second, is the need for it operationally. If you cant do your own FIs, interveiws of complaintants and witnesses, and interrogations then youre always going to be at a disadvantage.

" As far as the Academy goes, while everyone obviously should strive for it, would being a Police Academy standout help my odds of getting chosen for SWAT selection?" GOP

I finished third in my class (thanks to barely passing community relations). It's never been brought up since. What does matter is what courses and schools you get into for your professional development. I'm not sure what all the SWAT teams themselves be looking for in that regard. There's tons of schools available for each and every specialty in law enforcement. I've done quite a few firearms and use of force classes and schools that were full of SWAT types. It seems anything with the word "tactical" in the course description just excites the hell out of them!
 
"As far as no prior service hurting me, I completely understand that and I actually think that is reasonable to expect. Military combat arms units and SWAT units have a good bit in common in terms of training, etc. So it is to be expected that a guy with no military experience would have to work harder to prove themselves than a guy with military experience. It just means I have to work harder, work smarter, be more effecient, get more done, and frankly be a better patrol officer than the guy with military experience." GOP

I think you have the right attitude. It's nothing that will ultimately disqualify you. What will matter more than anything is your job performance and your character. It's one of those minor obstacles that you might have to overcome. But honestly, there's a whole hell of a lot of complete and total fucktards walking around with a badge as we speak. When you see things like thirty officers competing over each opening in SWAT and things like that ...  you have to keep in mind that ten of them might not stand a chance because they're
 
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GOP       7/26/2007 1:31:39 PM
Yeah, I'm planning on calling a Coast Guard recruiter soon. I'm looking for some in my area, I just don't know who I can trust. I'm feeling that they would give me a waiver (much more likely then say NSW), as I haven't had any anxiety attacks in 2 years now (and I can get my Doc, one of the best doctors in the field, to vouch for me). I've been thinking about the USCG alot lately anyway, because my Family owns a beach house and a boat, and I see those guys out there all the time and it looks pretty awesome, although I'm sure they have their disadvantages aswell.
 
As far as money, I have always felt I was the type who could live in the wilderness for weeks if I had to, and would have no problem living in a tiny apartment (since I'm naturally a very busy person), however, I'm sure my (future) wife would not be very happy with that :-). My Dad has always told me that money becomes very important when you go to have a family, so he's not too thrilled with my goals to join the military or law enforcement.
 
I've thought about going into Vice (I guess is the proper name?), but I'm not sure if I'd do well undercover. I've always been good at getting people to trust me, however I'm not sure if I could be that believable. I'm sure drug dealers know the game very well, and I'd probably end up getting shot :-). Are narcotics agents trained in how to lie, etc or is that made with experience on the street?
 
As far as being anti-SWAT, I completely understand what you are saying. Even watching shows like Dallas SWAT, you can see that those guys ransack a house and basically destroy evidence. Do you ever work with those guys from the show? They seem to be extremely professional.
 
It's funny you mention rappelling. I was at a gun shop the other day (looking at Glocks), and one of the guys there is part time and works on the PD as an armorer (well, he said he went to armorer school in the PD so I'm assuming). Anyway, he said he was training with a Tac commander who was rappelling, and he dropped his Sig and it broke (he's a big Glock guy, lol). I was thinking "what are the odds that they will have to rappell onto an op, what a waste of money". The biggest building in this town is 7 stories I think, so rappelling would probably be useless since in 99% of cases you could walk up the stairs.
 
Sort of an off topic question, but what kind of weapons are you allowed to carry as your personal sidearm? I mean, if the department issues Glocks and you want to carry a Sig, is there any way to get approval to carry a Sig? Also, what kind of weapons can you carry in your patrol car? I'm kind of a gun nut, and I'd probably want an HK 416 or a tricked out AR-15 in my patrol car, but I'm sure it isn't allowed.
 
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Horsesoldier       7/26/2007 2:11:09 PM

 
Sort of an off topic question, but what kind of weapons are you allowed to carry as your personal sidearm? I mean, if the department issues Glocks and you want to carry a Sig, is there any way to get approval to carry a Sig? Also, what kind of weapons can you carry in your patrol car? I'm kind of a gun nut, and I'd probably want an HK 416 or a tricked out AR-15 in my patrol car, but I'm sure it isn't allowed.
 
I believe a lot of it is departmental-level sort of policy, but if I'm not mistaken a lot of (most?) places will let you purchase your own service carbine to carry provided you can pass their qualification course with it and such.  At least that's my understanding from the couple of friends I have who're cops (mostly guys who got out of the military and wound up as LEOs).
 
That said, I think HK 416s are running about a one year waiting list for orders on Law Enforcement Departmental Letterhead at the moment.  I've heard that HK is negotiating to open a US production facility, though, so availability may go up in the future.

 
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Yimmy       7/26/2007 3:24:25 PM


It's funny you mention rappelling. I was at a gun shop the other day (looking at Glocks), and one of the guys there is part time and works on the PD as an armorer (well, he said he went to armorer school in the PD so I'm assuming). Anyway, he said he was training with a Tac commander who was rappelling, and he dropped his Sig and it broke (he's a big Glock guy, lol). I was thinking "what are the odds that they will have to rappell onto an op, what a waste of money". The biggest building in this town is 7 stories I think, so rappelling would probably be useless since in 99% of cases you could walk up the stairs.


I don't know about the law enforcement context, however for the military it is standard to assault buildings from the top down if at all possible - hence all the using ladders as catapults and launching people through upper windows and all that.

If you assault a building from the top down, the enemy have an escape route, and so can be flushed out and destroyed.  If you assault from the ground up, the enemy retreat to become trapped at the top of the building, and are far more likely to fight to the death.

Plus its a lot easier to throw grenades down stairs, than up.

 
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ChdNorm       7/29/2007 1:15:11 PM
"I've thought about going into Vice (I guess is the proper name?), but I'm not sure if I'd do well undercover. I've always been good at getting people to trust me, however I'm not sure if I could be that believable. I'm sure drug dealers know the game very well, and I'd probably end up getting shot :-). Are narcotics agents trained in how to lie, etc or is that made with experience on the street?" GOP
 
Vice is sort of a generalization anymore. Most larger departments separate Narcotics into it's own division (mostly due to issues of funding). Most departments will have narcotics detectives working street level enforcement out of the divisional stations and detectives working out of HQ doing mid and upper level enforcement and interdiction. Departments will also assign detectives to multi-jurisdictional task forces where they may work with officers from nearby cities, counties, state, and federal agencies or all of the above.
 
Very little time in narcotics is spent actually "undercover". There's just too many people that might be able to place you as the guy that stopped them over a headlight three years before. There are guys that do go deep cover for long stretches of time, but it's actually pretty rare. The vast majority of the time it's running CIs, building cases, and writing up volumes of paperwork. At the street enforcement level you might do buy-busts where you misrepresent yourself to random dealers on the street for very short periods (literally a matter of minutes). But, for every one misrepresenting himself to the dealer there are another five or six officers in very close proximity ready to pounce, so it's not really all that dangerous. Buy-walks are far more common though. In a buy-walk you send in a CI that you monitor throughout the transaction, then obtain an arrest and/or search warrant to execute at another time (or even just for intelligence gathering purposes with no prosecution). When establishing a pattern, you might eventualy introduce yourself into the transactions for a better perspective when it comes to the prosecution. The real dangers at that level are when you have to go in and extract a CI if it starts to go bad or on the warrant service, as opposed to having a cover blown though. The mid and upper enforcement levels involve a little more cover work due to the involvement in controlled deliveries and buys at the distribution level, but it's still pretty much the same.
 
When it comes to preparing for an undercover assignment, it's really more a matter of experience and personality than anything. There is specialized training involved ... but most of it comes from experience. You study a lot of kenesics in relation to I&I techniques and things like that initially anyway, so you build upon that experiance and skills with more in depth and advanced training. The skills involved to be a successful narcotics detective are little different from the skills needed to be a good burglary, sex crimes, auto theft, or whatever detective though. By far the single most important thing is to be able to build a solid case that ensures a successful prosecution.
 
"As far as being anti-SWAT, I completely understand what you are saying. Even watching shows like Dallas SWAT, you can see that those guys ransack a house and basically destroy evidence. Do you ever work with those guys from the show? They seem to be extremely professional." GOP
 
To be honest I've actually never seen a single episode of "Dallas SWAT", so I don't know how they come across on TV. It's tough to know everybody in a department of about 3,000 sworn with another 500-600 civilians, but I am acquainted pretty well with a few from the tactical teams. They are extremely professional and exceptional officers in every regard ... definitely the cream of the crop. I didn't mean to disparage them in any way, other than just from a matter of different operational perspectives. When they go in, their primary concern is the protection of people and the safety of personnel rather than the preservation of evidence. Which as far as things go is completely understandable from their perspective.
 
"Sort of an off topic question, but what kind of weapons are you allowed to carry as your personal sidearm? I mean, if the department issues Glocks and you want to carry a Sig, is there any way to get approval to carry a Sig? Also, what kind of weapons can you carry in your patrol car? I'm kind of a gun nut, and I'd probably want an HK 416 or a tricked out AR-15 in my patrol car, but I'm sure it isn't allowed." GOP
 
In regard to handguns, that really depends on the department. In most departments, you're obligated to carry what is approved/issued. It's really more a matter of maintaining the training program and liability more than anything else. You simply can't train a couple of thousan
 
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