In early Dec last year D Inf spoke at a forum and stated that the breakdown of bns would be 9 Lt Inf, 8 Armd Inf, 6 Mech Inf. He also stated that he was "reforming sniper and machine-gun platoons" (bit of poetic licence here no such composite creature has existed before and snipers have never been bigger that sections), "increasing the size of regular platoons to reflect the new emphasis on ISTAR" and "forming extra support platoons mixing GPMG-SF and 40mm grenade launchers to reach out to 2000m". No indication of what platoons will belong to which type of battalion. Incidentally Kitson did not create anything like a precursor to SRR, he created 'pseudo gangs', a very different beast. 'Bunch of Five' is a good read. On Cyprus you may be getting confused with the long established use of FINCOs and MILOs, who may or may not be getting rolled into SRR (I'd guess not), and also had a very different role to 14. I'd also suggest that talking about the 'INTEL ORBAT' shows a degree of misunderstanding but perhaps its semantics. It's possible that 14 were controlled by the G2 staff but I wouldn't be dogmatic, as a collection agency they could well be under G3 control, obviously their reports go to G2. G2 staff are not necessarily members of the Greenfly organisation, unlike some armies the Brits do not restict G2 staff appts to members of the Int Corps. It's also useful to remember that there are very few 'SAS officers' in the correct meaning of the term, ie commissioned into the SAS. There are, of course, plenty who are SAS officers in the sense that they have completed one or more tours in the SAS at some point in their career and returned to the own regt or corps or another extra-regimental or staff posting. It's also true that SAS regts have been commanded by officers on their first tour with the SAS, although they tend to have 'interesting' backgrounds.

1. "...8 armd infantry bns..." Thankyou. So my guesstimate of 7 wasnt far off using the basis that each of the seven "Divisions" needs at least one armd "slot" in the new fixed role ORBAT. Eight in two brigades looks a little heavy; so again the supposition of two or more spread between 1 Div reserve and Warminster demo looks right. 2. "...9 light..." 4 each in 16 and 19 Bdes plus 1 as 3 Div reserve? 3. "Incidentally"...I wrote "luminaries from the Kitson school" i.e. his protogees. There is a marked progression of the same individuals up the CT/Intel ranks, actually from Palestine-Malaya-Kenya-Cyprus-NI. I agree "Bunch of Five" is one of the classic works on CT; even have an autographed copy from 1977 when he was on the lecture circuit. Smart man.

Hello Worcester One piece of news that might interest you...according to Warships IFR (a very good UK based naval magazine) the Army and Royal Marines are discussing the permanent loan of an army infantry battalion to the marines. This quote was from Maj Gen Dutton of the marines, and I guess the fact that he said it publicly means that it is pretty likely to happen. With regard to the reorganising of army brigades very little is yet known (as you can tell from my handle I am not a military man). However I would like to advance another theory... 1 Mech Brig: 1 x Armd Regt, 1 x Armd Inf Btn, 2 x Mech Btns 4 Mech Brig: 1 x Armd Regt, 1 x Armd Inf Btn, 2 x Mech Btns 7 Armd Brig: 1 x Armd Regt, 3 x Armd Inf Btns 12 Mech Brig: 1 x Armd Regt, 1 x Armd Inf Btn, 2 x Mech Btns 16 Air Asslt Brig: 4 x Light Btns (2 of which are para) 19 Light Brig: 4 x Light Btns 20 Armd Brig: 1 x Armd Regt, 3 x Armd Inf Regts 3 Marine Brig: 1 x Light Btn (plus Marine Units) I hope the above is clear. I do not agree with your idea of units being placed into divisional reserve because the UK army is moving more to a brigade level force (the armd/mech brigs for instance will have their own supply and transport regments which could easily handle 4 units), and I think army brigs are moving to a square concept. In addition to this, each of the army's 5 armd/mech brigs is now going to be placed on an arms plot (of resting, small unit training, brig level training, reserve, and overseas service) which implies that they are meant to be pretty much interchangeable. Thre is a problem with this that it has one more armd inf btn than the number neutralizer quoted so I could be wrong - perhaps one of the armd brigs has one less armd inf btn. We may simply have to wait and see! I hope this is of interest anyway interestedamateur (real name John)

Thankyou for your thoughts. 1. Fascinating comment by Dutton re loan of army light bn; would like to see the quote, do you have a thread? Wonder if it was permanent or temporary since 3Cdo, as an "theatre entry" formation have always had the capacity to support other units passing over their beach or through through their turf, and even joining them temporarily until the next formation arrives; and it has happened a lot of times (Suez - forward untis of 19Bde until bde HQ got ashore, Borneo, Falklands - 2 Para until 5 Inf Bde HQ got ashore). Part of their launchpad role for other formations. If it is permanent then shades of the late 1700s when many army infantry battalions served as marines, esp the Glorious First of June. Probably Dutton playing politics since the RM already have 5+ major batallion-sized units (6+ if you include SBS) within the Corps, it may be too much politically to revive a Cdo when the army have spare bns and the RM have become a very large share of naval manpower. Maybe Dutton is bucking for a bigger slice of the pie so he can get a 3 star/Lt. Gen. job (Commdt Gen RM was 3 star in 1990); that would give him his "K"! 2. Your proposed structure has 9 armd inf and a 24 bn Field Army. Director Inf was quoted 12/04 as saying 8 armd (frankly I am dubious of this number - I believe 7 armd inf, see below) and CGS was quoted 2/05 (in writing) that the Field Army would have 23 bn. Scratch 1 armd inf bn; poss 2; total 7 of 23. The balance in a fixed structure has to be equitable between the infantry administrative divisions; and that so far is the guiding light. Equitability of postings:- Divisn: A+M+L=FA + OL= Total (Armd+Mech+Light=Field Army+ Other Light= Total) Guards: 1+0+1= 2 + 3 = 5 (20 Bde/no mech balance UK/2 Public Duties) ScotsD: 1+1+1= 3 + 2 = 5 (2 regts) KingsD: 1+1+1= 3 + 2 = 5 QueenD: 1+2+1= 4 + 2 = 6 (3 regts; 1 Mech bn vs. RIR Armd bn) PoWalD: 1+1+1= 3 + 2 = 5 LightD: 1+1+1= 3 + 2 = 5 ParaRg: 0+0+2= 2 + 0 = 2 (1Para leave the Line) RIrish: 1+0+0= 1 + 0 = 1 (Armd bn interchangeable QD Mech; excl HDef bns)) Gurkha: 0+0+1= 1 + 1 = 2 (Church Crookham + Brunei) TOTALS: 7+7+9=23 +13 =36 To verify, work backwards: 16+19 Bde = 8 light role..have 9 = 1 bn reserve (3 Div, School of Inf) 1+4+12Bde = 6 mech role...have 7 = 1 bn reserve (3 Div, 1 Div, Sch of Inf) 7+20 Bde = 4 armd bn...have 7 = 3 bn reserve (2 in GY, 1 in Sch of Inf) How can you be fair? Probably (and here I do speculate) in each Division:- (a) senior 3 bn Regiment has 2 Field Army slots (1 A + 1 L) plus 1 OL (b) junior 2 bn Regiment has 1 Field Army slot (1 Mech bn) plus 1 OL. They rotate personnel between the units. 3. With 7 (perhaps 8) armd there isn't be enough for mixing armd and mech which seems unusual - makes Mech bdes heavier and slower to deploy when the point of replacing Saxon and AS90 under FRES/FAS is to make them lighter and faster. Anyway, you're short one armd bn; possibly 2. 4. Divisional reserve. All divisions have reserves. No divisional commander will do the job without the capacity to replenish his brigades and protect his lines of communication - look at GW1 and Iraq - and every divisional commander has the right to switch units from brigade to brigade as necessary; there is nothing new in UK brigade responsibilities. Division's are still responsible for their whole area and securing LOC...even when their maneuver formations (brigades) are fully engaged. Indeed, the UK concept of brigade re-generation demands a reserve. The existing armd bdes - 4 (soon to be mech), 7 & 20 - all have only 2 armd inf bn and 1 armd regt because the remainder are in reserve; check out the Hohne garrison units which are not allocated to 7 or 20 bde. The "invisible" 41 inf bde has the job of protecting 1 Div Line of Communications - also a reserve job. Also check out the Tidworth Garrison units outside brigades but in reserve for 3 Div. You cannot just stick all combat units into forward brigades however nice that may look on paper. Regeneration, regenration, regeneration. 5. Brigade level force. It always has been the exponent of brigades (except 1978-82 during the Field Force experiment.) 6. Logistics units...indeed. 7. Support 4 units. Yes but since some of the brigade you describe have 7 units...you are forgetting the BIGGEST users of logistics....the artillery regiment and the engineer squadron(s)/regt. plus of course the logistics regiment itself; add your inf bns and armd regts and you get 7 or more which not only breaches the "T6 Rule" (no HQ can handle efficiently more than 6 permanent direct subordinates) but makes them too heavy and unwieldy for a typical "brigade mission". Sure you can ADD units for a specific mission; but if you start out too heavy you have to leave units behind and just drag around too much baggage in a Brigade Maintenance Reserve for 7 units when you may be fielding 4 or 5; keep it flexible and add as needed. John,

Hello Worcester Very interesting comments. I'll reply to each in turn, but bearing in mind the official situation is unclear, I'll try and keep it brief. 1. No link to the article unfortunately. The website for the magazine can be found at (or .com) and I think it was the february edition. It was implied that the army battalion would become an integral part of the brigade. Basically the marines have been really busy over the past few years - another maneuvre unit will ease the strain on them. The article stated that the marines are not creating a 4th Commando because the training structure cannot handle the extra numbers who would need to be trained. It was also stated that the Marines have recently had shortfalls in recruitment numbers. I think your comment about Naval politics is probably also a factor - the Admirals are losing roughly 25% of their frigate/destroyer force and would not be pleased to see a further marine expansion. Maj Gen Dutton and his predecessors fully deserve their "K" anyway quite frankly (assuming Cdo 21 doesn't fail miserably). I should re-stress that this is under discussion so presumably the final decision has not yet been taken. 2. Arguably one light battalion going to the marines is not part of the field army, so my numbers would also be 23! I fully admit that's picky! More seriously, bearing in mind that this decision has not yet been finalised, one could argue that that battalion isn't part of the 23. Very interesting structure from the administrative division point of view. I don't know if its correct, but my gut feeling is that it's too tidy. I find it hard to believe that the current school of infantry is going to grow from 1 battalion to 3, but I could be wrong. 4. I take your point about reserve units, but you have to admit that all of the reserve battalions currently in 51st and 2nd Brigades, and those used in GW1 were light btns. I've never heard of such high value units as Armd Inf or Mech btns being outside of Brig structures. If you look at page A-2 of Annex A to DGS/11/4/7 (CGS) Dated 16 Dec 04, paragraph 5d specifically states that "There will be an increase from 19 (48%) to 23 (64%) infantry battalions in all arms brigades." The key issue, Worcester, is that too many units have been too busy over the past few years causing manpower retention problems. By placing all units in brigades and creating a readiness cycle, you are easing the strain on your frontline btns. It doesn't make any sense to create a readiness cycle for brigades which ensures that units get the downtime they need, and then placing other btns outside of that system as a "divisional reserve". 6. You may already know this, but the new Armd and Mech Brig Logistic Support Regiments are not the same as US style brigade support btns. According to another UK mag (this time Combat and Survival) their structure is: 2 Transport companies 1 Supply company 1 HQ & Spt Company. The Logistic Support for Armd and Mech Brigades is hugely boosted by this structure and supports my contention that the UK army is brigade centric. 7. I fully accept your views on the chain of command. UK Mech and Armd brigade TOE's are beginning to look scary: 3 or 4 Maneuvre Battalions Artillery Regiment Engineer Regiment Logistic Support Regiment REME Battalion Medical Battalion or Company (not sure about this one) Recce Regiment or Company (haven't quite worked this one out yet either) Brigade HQ and Signals Company I don't think I've forgotten anything! Its interesting to compare the above with the new US Units of Action - it shows a very different philosophy. To my mind the UK Brigades are approaching the strength and size of French style Armd Div's from the 1980's in terms of combat power. This email has gone on for far too long! I hope its of interest anyway John

Three Light Amphibious/Mountain Battalions could be formed from the 'other light' specialization. These could double the weight of a landing or reduce pressure on RM 3 Commando by rotating in to relieve them for rest and other duties (Artic/Jungle).

Divisional troops continue to exist, there is no reason why they shouldn't include infantry battalions.

Hi Perfect General I can't see where the three battalions you are suggesting would comne from unless you create more. The British Army has 36 battalions in total deployed in: 23 are in brigades (or divisional reserve) 1 is the Spearhead Battalion 2 are in Cyprus 1 is the EU Rapid Reaction Battle group 3 are Public Duties (2 in London, 1 in Edinburgh) 1 is possibly attached to 3 Cdo Brigade 1 is in Brunei 1 is in the School of Infantry 3 are possibly in Northern Ireland I make that 36. Some of these figures are speculative (such as Northern Ireland), but its hard to see where 3 extra could be found. John

Hi Neutralizer You may well be right. I have to be honest and admit that I can't fit the 8 Armd Inf Btns you say that Brigadier Balfour (D Inf) mentioned into 2 Armd and 3 Mech Brigs. John

D Inf didn't state formations (or where), merely total types, the original intention had been to reduce to 5 armd inf bns (ie remove them from the mech bdes). Spearhead bn is a temporary rotating role mostly if not always among the UK based 'brigaded' bns. I'd assess that the EU designated bn is also from among the 23. The real problem now is arty and a lack of DS btys. Ignoring RM, 23 bns, 5 armd regts and 2 recce regts assigned to bdes = 30 potential battle groups, but only 21 DS btys although there are at least 3 and possibly 5 btys of Tac Gps only(including in some cases PFACs).