I hear that in test the F-22/35 wins 10 out of 10 times which makes sense if you think about it. The fact that the F-22/35 can get a shot off before being detected is a huge advantage. It like comparing a Battleship to a SSN. Both are powerful but the SSN can fire without being detected and underwater where it is invulnerable to the BB guns. 4th Gen vs 5th Gen is a slaughter unless 5th Gen make tactical errors.

"Assume electronics & missile capabilities are the same" What other capabilities (that are meaningfull BVR) are then left except stealth? I think that the question is how good are those electronic capabilities? If everyone can jam others radars so that no one can fire BVR it could get interesting. Any other scenario would end with all Fs in the air. (Except those where they got out of fuel, they were outnumbered 10 to 1 or had to carry extrenal stores or got very disadvatageuos positions.) Rafale would propably win SU-30 9 out of 10.

The problem given by Rafale to other fighters is quite clear : Rafale is 4 1/2 generation fighter with 5 1/2 generation avionics . I wouldn 't be surprised if a Rafale vs F-35/F-22 scenario endup with the Dassault fighter winning the engagement . What do we have ? "Physical" Stealth in one hand and SPECTRA on the other . What do you bet on ? Everybody 's got LPI radar (better range for the F-serie) but the passive detections of Rafale are second to none . If alerted , it could rely only to IRST ~50 km range~ and IR MICA ~same range~ salvo to destroy the opponent . Rafale is a Hell of a bird you know ... Cheers .

First post with positive Rafale poss. There are more than a few problems with this posit. Avionics are not equal. Missiles are not equal. Radars are not equal if the antena dishes are different sizes. Given the 10-1 out numbered F-22 kills all 10 of them and then goes home to get more fuel and missiles before returning to kill 10 more at a wack! The F-35 does not have enough persistance to do this, but would still triumph the vast majority of the time against the Su-30. In anything less than the 10-1 ratio you cite above it wins 100% of the time. The Rafale losses 100% of the time to all three of the others. It is not stealthy enough to make up for the small radar Vs the Su-30. The Ruskis have very long ranged missiles in stock. The French do not. The Rafale is not stealthy enough to dodge those missiles and the huge radar untill it can close the range. Vs the F-22/35 it is dog meat just like all the rest. 100% losses for no wins. Ever! Second post with Rafale poss. The dish and radar in Rafale are insignificant when compaired to that in any of the other three birds. They all get first look-first shot! Rafale is not nearly stealthy enough to dodge the su-30's powerfull radar and long range missiles! As to 50 Klick range to detect any thing that just isn't going to happen often. That the missile will go that far with a valid lock is more dreaming, except at high altitude. The big Ruski missiles have proven IR capability at high alt that exceeds this by a very significant margine. Your falacy that active jamming AKA SPECTRA, will actualy be worth anything Vs the newest missiles is also shere folly! The RCS of Rafale is just to big to be of much value in this senario. While the radar in F-35 is of about the same power as that in Rafale it is in a stealthy plane and it has proven LPI capasity! SPECTRA is decades away IF THEY CAN EVER MAKE IT WORK! The idea of active stealth has been around for decades! Better folks than the French have and are looking at it. There are more than a few problems that no one is talking about, that are sure show stoppers as we say untill some one dose the imposable and fixes them. Rafale is a forth gen plane with avionics that do not have modes and powers that we were fliing in 1973. Given it's mission of bombing third and forth world targets, it is quite good for the job, even if it is twice as expencive as the better plane. But against a first rate power, it's just so much waisted money!

One more time , you do not know what you are talking about Shooter . You 'll better stay away from the AirForce forums if you ask me . None of your claims stands . The fact is that you masturbate your ego at bashing the Dassault fighter without ANY knowledge of the aircraft . Your "estimates" of RBE2 are false from day one . To have doubts about French Radar technology is simply childish . During Air combat , RBE2 will search above or below the horizon out to 62 nm (120 km) and automaticaly select high , medium or low LPI pulse-repetition to optimize detection . The funny fact is that you 're the first to remind others that the lethal enveloppe of an air to air missile is far less than its maximum range , and certainly less than ANY radar range . Fighters have to close in to each other to get a decent chance for a kill . And it is where F-22/35 are vulnerable ~like ANY other aircraft~ because of IRST technology . In this regard , Rafale is much better equipped than F-22/35 for 3 main reasons : - Superior IRST than both F- fighters - SPECTRA - IR MICA And I bet you a beer that MDA , the French manufacturer of Meteor will equipped it with IR too . So you can forget the "first look-first shot" thingie . Listen to yourself saying "Rafale is a forth gen plane with avionics that do not have modes and powers that we were fliing in 1973" ... For me , that proves one thing . Or you 're a pure basher or you 're thick . Or both ... And SPECTRA is working fine thank you , and have been doing so since day one . Remember that Rafale did not loose a single exercise engagement with ANY aircraft to this day . Cheers .

"- Superior IRST than both F- fighters" I'm curious as to when Fraqnce had its first operational and active IRST system and where it's been deployed? The USAF was fielding IRST on F-117's in 1978, first major combat use was in 1999 - where literally thousands of hours were logged using them as part of a standard delivery system. At that point they were able to discriminate between Mig 23's and Mig 29's at BVR - so one would assume that they have already established a degree of discrimination beyond what is beyind the public domain. The question is, why would anyone think that the USAF would have less capable IRST fielded on their incoming Hi-Lo 5th generation aircraft than on their stealth platform which is now 27 years old.

A bit more history on IRSTs, as I share gf0012-aust's doubts about claims that the Rafale will have a "more advanced IRST" than the other fighters. The US has used IRSTs since the 1950s. Early IR sensors like the AAS-15 used on the F-8D/E Crusader, F-102, and F-106, were pretty limited but could be useful to make up for deficiencies in radar performance, for example in look-down situations (where radar lock would be broken due to ground clutter) or in high ECM environments. Slaving the radar to the IRST would allow a Sparrow shot, for example, in situations where the radar alone would not be able to lock on to a target. This only worked at relatively short ranges, as the IR sensor was a 2D sensor providing no range or velocity data. The US Navy has also used IRST on interceptors since the late 50s. The F-4B Phantom had the AAA-4 in 1958, and that was deleted from later production aircraft. From what I've read, it worked about as well as the AAS-15, but like that system it was heavy and unreliable. Amusingly, the F-8E(FN) Crusaders used by the French Aeronavale on its carriers until the 1990s did not carry the IRST used by US Navy F-8s. The F-14A had the ALR-23 IRST in 1974, and that was soon replaced with the TCS system in all F-14A's. The TCS system was judged more useful for identifying BVR targets. The F-14D brought IRST back with the AAS-42, fitted alongside the TCS on some F-14D's. This is apparently a fairly useful sensor, as it has evolved into a podded version which is deployed on, among other aircraft, Korean F-15K fighters and some models of F-16C. An "advanced IRST" based on the AAS-42 was developed for the F-22, but IIRC it is not going to be deployed: http://www.arnold.af.mil/aedc/testhighlights/trisonics/trisonics.htm Also, there's nothing preventing use of modern ground-attack FLIRs as air to air IRSTs. Marine F/A-18D Hornets have used their AAS-38 Nite Hawk FLIR to cue AMRAAMs, for example. At any rate, the IRST on the Rafale is hardly unique. And while IRST systems can be useful, they are still passive, bearing-only sensors, and they are certainly not a panacea against stealth.

I have no proof that French IRST are better than US counterparts , but Rafale 's IRST can aquire an aircraft at 50km and ID it at 35-40km , which is well inside the enveloppe of MICA , IR or radar guided . Cheers .

The Rafale is a very good 4th generation fighter. Its 10 yrs late, given everything equal it would probably beat the newest F15. The f15 will no longer be built, not because it isn't a great plane, but because its 30yr {plus} old design is almost maxed on upgrades. Problem of the dollar chasing the dime. The Rafale will be in the same shape in less than 10 years, it will always be very good against 4th generation aircraft, but will never be a front line fighter against 5th generation. The French investment for the Rafale will never pay off. I don't think any Euro country can go it alone to create the next 5th generation fighter, nor can Europe afford to do so. Maybe a Euro/Russian partnership. Remember f22, rafale are both 10 yr old designs,SU30 a little older and the f35 closer to 8yrs. SU30 vs Rafale close, one on one you would probably lose both planes. F22 vs both a SU30 and a Rafale, the F22 tanks both and goes home unseen and twice as fast. Same for the F35 but half as fast. More than two to one, no one will truely know untill we see the planes in combat, but I would be happier with my "but" in the seat of a F22 or F35 than a SU30 or Rafale.

The JSF has already been designed? I thought they were still dealing with the designs weight problems. Methinks that your thinking of the prototype. In that case, as far as i know (off the top of my head): F-15: 40 years Rafele: 20 years F-22: 20 years F-35: 6 years