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Subject: F-35 against F-22
OzWarrior    7/11/2006 7:45:36 AM
Which of these two birds would have the edge if they were pitted against each other in combat? Ozzy
 
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DarthAmerica    RE:F-35 against F-22   7/11/2006 2:06:45 PM
Guys remember the F-22's got an order of magnitude or better advantage in RCS over the F-35. Not too much of a difference against legacy platforms but a distinct advantage for an F-22 vs F35 comparison futher compounded by the more powerful APG-77 and very misunderstood(IMO) built in ELINT. Not to mention flight performance.
 
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USN-MID    RE:F-35 against F-22   7/11/2006 2:27:57 PM
"There has been a learning curve. Best practices have been realized through the F-22 program & subsequently incorporated into the JSF program." True. But the fact of the matter still stands...the F-22 has more effort into creating stealth. The F-35 was designed with "budget cost efficiency" in mind. Still a great fighter, but they intentionally didn't go for broke when designing the thing. And has been stated...the B-2 is still probably stealthier, despite being older. And the F-22 still has major BVR performance advantages. However, I'd argue that it's tough for us to say whether or not the RCS difference combined with radar power difference will actually be enough to sway the outcome significantly. For all we know, both will be hammering away with LPI AESA radars, and neither will find the other until they practically stumble upon each other.
 
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DarthAmerica    RE:F-35 against F-22   7/11/2006 3:04:54 PM
"And has been stated...the B-2 is still probably stealthier, despite being older." Another stick in the eye of the misinformed who think generations=technology. "However, I'd argue that it's tough for us to say whether or not the RCS difference combined with radar power difference will actually be enough to sway the outcome significantly. For all we know, both will be hammering away with LPI AESA radars, and neither will find the other until they practically stumble upon each other." If we are argueing F-22 vs F-35 then you could bet your life savings it would be enough. F-35 or F-22 vs any other fighter and the detection range and signature reduction advantages are simply too overwhelming and almost ensure the result. F-35 vs F-22 and the F-35 driver has some real problems to deal with. He/She has got to overcome a fighter thats gor twice the detection range advantage using radar at least, ELINT capabilities that would probably come into play and flight performance that makes the F-22 twice as fast for all practical purposes. The F-35 greatly reduces the F-22s advantages in detection range but it wont totally negate it.
 
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VelocityVector    RE:F-35 against F-22 - Mid   7/11/2006 3:05:53 PM
> For all we know, both > will be hammering away > with LPI AESA radars, > and neither will find the > other until they practically > stumble upon each other. One on one, I could be persuaded to picture this. However with flight on flight given the additional 1/3 synch’d AESA modules per F-22 radar you get an ^ increase in return data analyzed and shared in near real time by the F-22 flight, and I tend to believe this together with the superior threat library will give F-22 the ability to track F-35 from BVR and cue dual seeker AMRAAMs to w/in activation range. Considered with F-22’s typically greater operating altitude and velocity advantages, plus greater A2A team training, and I think an F-22 flight stands a better chance of getting off the first shots. WVR, who knows. F-35 would appear to have diminished rear aspect IR stealth relative to F-22 so if helmet-cued snap shots are taken more short range F-22 missiles should guide on F-35s than the other way around. Of course, given relative price points, there may be a lot more F-35s entering the furburger. v^2
 
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DarthAmerica    RE:F-35 against F-22 - V^2   7/11/2006 3:16:06 PM
Outside the US there wouldnt be THAT MUCH of a F-35 numerical superiority when you really think about it. And the ability of the F-22 to pick and choose when to enter or exit a fight almost at will combined with superior detection range should be enough to offset mumerical superiority IMV unless somebody could field many more F-35's than are being planned on by world airforces currently.
 
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VelocityVector    RE:F-35 against F-22 - DA   7/11/2006 3:29:45 PM
Concur. Also, I neglected to mention that typically F-22 will carry more A2A ordinance than F-35. With the right set of rules, the F-22 flight may be able to launch successive waves at BVR thereby improving the odds in its favor even assuming it's outnumbered by the F-35s. Then there's the whole e-warfare thingie, an adversary equipped with F-35 source code might just conjure up some interesting tricks to throw at USAF. v^2
 
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DarthAmerica    RE:F-35 against F-22 - V^2   7/11/2006 3:45:16 PM
There is also the Intel thing. THe US, assuming the US remains the only F-22 user, would have a far better idea of the operating characteristics and weaknesses of the F-35 than others would have about the F-22. That could make for some very interesting e-warfare indeed. Especially with a Tx/Rx as capable and versitile as the APG-77.
 
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ugadawg5    RE:F-35 against F-22 - V^2   7/11/2006 11:41:11 PM
how does the F-22's thrust vectoring capability play into the wvr fight?
 
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Thomas    RE:F-35 against F-22   7/12/2006 5:07:26 AM
It might be so bad that the pilots would actually have to look out of the office! We are back to the good old day of the Battle of Britain. F-35/F-22 or not the other side will eventually get around to negate some of the capabilities. Groundbased radar will probably get around to some detection range that could guide the super-expensive fighters to the neigbourhood of the enemy and from there it would be eyeball Mark 1. They might have to reinstate Royal Observer Corps and Luftmeldekorpset!
 
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Aussiegunnerreturns    RE:Since when would either be immune to AMRAAM?   7/12/2006 6:46:14 AM
"Stealth is not invisibility." Nope, but it will reduce the detection range of the AMRAAM's onboard radar so much that the AMRAAM would more or less be a command-guided Sparrow, with illumination required to virtually all the way to the target. In contrast, modern IRM's with lock on after launch will still be able to be used as fire and forget weapons, are more agile than the AMRAAM and in the case of hittiles like the ASRAAM won't have to worry about any problems stealth causes proximity fuses. Given that detection ranges will be so short that the AMRAAM's range advantage will be irrelevant, why wouldn't you use an IRM instead?
 
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