Military History | How To Make War | Wars Around the World Rules of Use How to Behave on an Internet Forum
Fighters, Bombers and Recon Discussion Board
   Return to Topic Page
Subject: F-35 against F-22
OzWarrior    7/11/2006 7:45:36 AM
Which of these two birds would have the edge if they were pitted against each other in combat? Ozzy
 
Quote    Reply

Show Only Poster Name and Title     Newest to Oldest
Pages: PREV  1 2 3 4 5 6   NEXT
dwightlooi       10/14/2007 7:33:43 PM



ASRAAM

interesting thought, because if ASRAAM is already certified then it means that RAAF won't have a problem for WVR loadouts.

it also raises the issue of ASRAAM upgrades and developments....


The ASRAAM is already ready for Ejector Launch. However, like every other weapon it has to go through the process of integration testing and certification for use with the F-35. It is scheduled to be cleared for use prior to IOC along with about 20~30 other weapon types.

 
Quote    Reply

Mechanic       10/15/2007 10:03:47 AM





Yes, you're right that since that post of mine we've learned that AIM-9X can not be carried internally according to the current design.  I think it's quite unfortunate that neither stealth fighter is currently capable of carrying the X-Ray internally, because it is an awesome weapon.  Hopefully if the fight devolves down to the point that for whatever reason we actually find an F-22 or F-35 somehow forced into a situation where they need to fight WVR with AIM-9Ms versus threat aircraft that are actually carrying something equal or better (thankfully at the moment that's really only the AA-11, but sooner or later that category will eventually include more capable missiles), then hopefully we'll still retain enough situational awareness advantage that we'll still emerge victorious.  I'd feel better if they just found some way to carry AIM-9X, though....  :-(


 



The reason the AIM-9X cannot be carried internally on the F-35 is that it is currently not designed for ejector launch. That is the AIM-9X is designed to leave a rail, not to be ejected vertically then light its motors a few moments after it severes its connections with the aircraft. The ASRAAM on the other hand is already certified for both rail or ejector launch and it lives happily in the internal positions on an F-35.

Unlike some claims, the issue has nothing to do with the missile not being able to see the target while it is in the bay because lock-on-after launch capability is designed into the AIM-9X -- it is what enables those over the shoulder shots. The AIM-9X can be carried internally on the F-22's side bays because these are launch rails whereas the F-35's internal positions -- including the door mounts -- are all ejectors.

Having said that 2007~2013 is a LONG time to certify the AIM-9X for ejector release.
I've been arguing about this subject here before, but I still haven't seen anything that confirms or even strongly suggests that AIM-9X is LOAL capable.

Jane's Air Launched Weapons 10-JUL-2007 Update lists LOAL mode as one of the Block II AIM-9X features.

So today it a problem that the AIM-9X can't see the target while on launcher, but that will be corrected by the time F-35 enters squadrons. LOAL, as said before, is not the only factor that make is capable to be drop launched. Rocket motor ignition comes first to mind and while that could be easily modified then there are controlability issues during separation / motor ignition.

F-22 integration might be possible after LOAL / datalink Block II missile.

 
Quote    Reply

french stratege       10/15/2007 10:31:58 AM
To be clear F22 is by far most capable platform.
However depending level of stealth and captors, outcome can change greatly.
F22 radar is able to detect a 1 sqm RCS fighter at 180 km.
F35 is said to be the size of a golf ball so we can assume a 0,002 sqm RCS which mean that F22 would detect F35 at 40 km.Of course F35 radar performance is worse vs a F22 lower RCS even, and half of that.
However F35 has an IRST and could likely detect F22 farther than 50 km.
So in clear weather F35 could have the first detection in BVR....and win.
In WVR F22 has best kinematic performance but then F35 has HMS so the best pilots on a F35 would have a fair chance.
Again it depend of captors and tactics.
Now put an IRST on F22 and problem solved.
 
Quote    Reply

Phaid       10/15/2007 10:40:21 AM
I've been arguing about this subject here before, but I still haven't seen anything that confirms or even strongly suggests that AIM-9X is LOAL capable.

There is nothing to argue about: AIM-9X LOAL is very old news.  The missile was designed with it from the outset, it has the INS and the software to use it.  The Block II AIM-9X will expand on that capability by adding the AMRAAM's midcourse datalink, but the basic ability to do LOAL within seeker range is there now.
 
Quote    Reply

Mechanic       10/15/2007 11:25:16 AM


I've been arguing about this subject here before, but I still haven't
seen anything that confirms or even strongly suggests that AIM-9X is
LOAL capable.


There is nothing to argue about: AIM-9X LOAL is very old news.  The missile was designed with it from the outset, it has the INS and the software to use it.  The Block II AIM-9X will expand on that capability by adding the AMRAAM's midcourse datalink, but the basic ability to do LOAL within seeker range is there now.

Raytheon New release is obviously about a test missile "The test is part of a multi-year risk retirement program that may lead tofull scale development." and that's fine as Block II missile is to be procured in LOT 8 starting from 2009.

The second Flight Global article states that the "which is expected to extend the missile's range in lock-on after launch mode." As a non-native English speaker I must ask: Can this mean that "Block II will extend missile's range by allowing the missile to lock on after launch" or does it clearly mean that "it will increase the range that the missile has when launched in LOAL mode?

Either way Jane's clearly states in its AIM-9X description dated July 2007 that Block I AIM-9X only has LOBL mode, not LOAL mode. I would rank Jane's above Flight Global as a creditable source. Of course Jane's could be wrong, but based on information I have gather during years about this subject makes me believe Jane's is right.
 
Quote    Reply

Phaid       10/15/2007 11:46:48 AM
AIM-9X has always had LOAL capability.  The second press release says exactly what it says: the datalink on AIM-9X Sidewinder Block II will extend the range of LOAL mode further than the range it has with the existing LOAL capability.

The limitation on the current LOAL mode is that there is no datalink.  So obviously the range of such shots is limited since it has no way to correct for the target's maneuvers until the seeker can lock on on its own.  The farther the target aircraft is outside of the seeker range, the higher the odds that the target can evade the missile.  This is why, for practical purposes, AIM-9X LOAL range is currently limited to shots within the seeker range.

 
Quote    Reply

Mechanic       10/15/2007 12:08:17 PM
Obviously we disagree with each other and can't find public documents to convince the other to change his mind so lets leave this here.
 
Quote    Reply

Phaid       10/15/2007 1:59:14 PM
I think we're both partly correct.  What I suspect is really the case is that AIM-9X Block 1 has the hardware to do LOAL and has always had, but the software for it is not, or was not until recently, fielded.  That explains both what Jane's says and what Raytheon's press release says, without contradicting either one.
 
Quote    Reply

the uh man123?       7/15/2010 5:35:28 AM
the F-22's top speed is 1,620 mph. the F-35's is only 1,250 mph. plus, the F-22 can turn much sharper than the F-35. so thats really it. they both have the same type of stealth becuase they are both american.so its kinda a win, lose battle but the F-22 is better and there for the F-22 would win.
 
Quote    Reply

Reactive    Re:   7/15/2010 10:33:04 AM
Really strange thread...

Generally Impossible to evaluate (we don't have the data).

You could come up with every form of conjecture on this one (and some have) but really the "victor" would depend on factors that we do not know, and specifically whether the newer APG-81 has been designed to fox the APG-77, unlikely.
 
Who knows, it is vaguely conceivable that a future nation (turkey, for example) could turn hostile at some point in the future, in all likelihood this risk has been mitigated in the design process (software).
 
Wait for the exercises, they will be pitted against each other at the very least in WVR. 
 
Quote    Reply
PREV  1 2 3 4 5 6   NEXT



 Latest
 News
 
 Most
 Read
 
 Most
 Commented
 Hot
 Topics