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Subject: French Assembly - Cut Rafale to 12 a year / cut 20 Nuclear Rafales
Softwar    5/27/2008 1:11:37 PM
Aviation Week & Space Technology
05/26/2008 , page 23

The French Assembly defense committee says it will move to amend a white paper that is planned to reorient France?s defense priorities in light of new threats and budget realities. In particular, the committee will urge changes to reflect a greater focus on air mobility, and less on complex hardware such as digital battlefield systems. The white paper, to be presented to the council of ministers on June 11, calls for cutting the combat aircraft projection capability to 70 from 100 aircraft, reducing the number of multimission frigates to 12 from 17 and the quantity of fighting vehicles to 650 from 700. It also recommends cutting the overall combat fleet to 300 from 340 aircraft and decreasing the build rate for the Rafale fighter to 12 from 18 per year. The number of Rafale nuclear strike fighters would be cut by 20 units.

 
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doggtag    Is this a French, or European, thing?   5/27/2008 4:15:08 PM
...wherein they have specific models/lots of the aircraft that are designated nuclear capable, rather than the whole production run?
 
Doesn't it make more sense to enable all aircraft to be configured so (proper pylon equipment, proper wiring, etc) ?
 
Seems like an ideal system would be to have all aircraft nuke capable, but the software that interfaces and controls the weapon for arming and launch is only installed when the aircraft are actually readied (heaven forbid) for a nuclear sortie.
Seems like that would be more than sufficient an initial failsafe: plane is equipped to haul the nukes, but can't fully arm and deploy them without the software (and maybe some minor hardware tweaks).
 
Wouldn't that lessen any chance that a given nation's nuclear strike arm isn't specifically targetted whilst leaving the non-nuke capable aircraft as lower priority targets?
 
Is this USAF and USN policy as well: only configure certain models of aircraft as nuke capable?
Most books I've seen over the years suggest that the majority of US tactical aircraft can carry and deploy (authorization required, of course) tactical nukes, not requiring aircraft to be specifically tailored or built to do so.
 
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Softwar       5/27/2008 4:42:24 PM
It's my understanding (and Bluewings can correct me on this) that the Rafale N is a modified version of the strike aircraft rigged to carry the ramjet ASMP nuclear tipped cruise missile.  It, no doubt, has some addtional rad hardening for the nuclear combat role and is set up with extra fuel for the longer range mission requirements.  It is slated to take over from the N version of Mirage for the Force De Frappe.
 
The USAF and USN can rig any of the F series to carry tactical nuclear weapons but the strategic role is left to ACC.  The Air Combat Command (former SAC) force of bombers are outfitted to carry the heavy stuff, free fall nukes and cruise missiles.  The Buff, Bone and Spirit are set up with rad hardening and C3 for strategic nuclear combat. 
 
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Phaid       5/28/2008 1:53:42 AM
There is no special version of the Rafale for nuclear strike.  The "Rafale N" is the designation for a 2-seat carrier version, which was canceled.  There are only three versions of the Rafale in service: Rafale M (Marine), single seat carrier version; Rafale C (Chasseur), single seat land based version; and Rafale B (Biplace), dual seat land based version.

The current French Air Force nuclear strike force consists of 60 Mirage 2000N two-seat fighters.  The 2000N is a specialized version of the 2000D that is equipped for nuclear strike.

The Mirage 2000Ns are in due course to be replaced by Rafale Bs.  Those Rafales won't be any different than the standard Rafale B, but their mission and training obviously will be a lot more specialized.

The "Livre Blanc" simply says that the current 60 Mirage 2000Ns will be replaced in due course by only 40 Rafales.

Regarding the combat aircraft projection capability of the AdA: the "operational contract" of the AdA will be reduced such that it must maintain the capability to deploy 70 combat aircraft able to generate 100 sorties per day for up to two months.  It must also maintain 10 aircraft available for "punctual operations" inside or outside of French territory.
 
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Softwar    Thanks Phaid!   5/28/2008 8:46:31 AM
Glad you clarified this issue.
 
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Bluewings12       5/28/2008 11:55:03 AM
Phaid has it right on the spot , no need for me to add anything ...

Cheers .

 
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ambush       5/28/2008 2:12:04 PM
 

This is does not bode well for Raphale in the export market. Reduce domestic orders is bound to drive up unit costs   Since the French are delaying the decision to build another carrier you can figure that they will delay or reduce the buy of M model Raphales.

 
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Herald12345    Failure is failure.   5/28/2008 3:39:30 PM
After a while even "les despicables" have to become FRENCH-i.e.  rational.

You can only afford so many Leclucks and Squalls before the rude English words "debacle" and "boondoggle" enter into the irate French taxpayers' lexicon

US examples:
Sort of like the C-130J.
Sort of like the V-22.
Sort of like the Future Combat System.
Sort of like the Zumwalts and the LCSs

Herald

 
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Bluewings12       5/28/2008 5:15:38 PM
Herald :
""Leclucks and Squalls""

Don 't you have enough with your french bashing ?..
Of course not , you 're a prick .

Cheers .

 
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Bluewings12       5/28/2008 6:30:35 PM
Ambush :
""Since the French are delaying the decision to build another carrier you can figure that they will delay or reduce the buy of M model Raphales.""

First , it is Rafale . Do I call the F-22 : "Rapetore" ?

The fact that N. Sarkozy delayed our 2nd carrier to 2015 has NOTHING to do with the planned numbers of Rafale Ms .
France did order enough Rafale Ms for 2 carrier groups (+ the side wing) and the order is going through , no worries .
The main problem is that in 2015 , the CdG will go through his second nuclear plant replacement , which means that 60 Rafale Ms will stay without Carrier  , that' s the problem . The Richelieu Carrier will be at sea by 2017 and I deplore it deeply .

France ~and others~ are not as rich as they used to be ...

Cheers .



 
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Herald12345    France has bever built a ship on schedule.    5/28/2008 7:45:36 PM
If you laid the keel today; you'd never see the nouveau porte avions  by 2015.

The production claims you make for the Squall are irrelevant. We are discussing program cuts proposed. Nothing official is yet on the table. With the likelihood of NO porte avions at all, the construction of Rafale Ms as planned or suggested is a boondoggle.

Herald

 
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Phaid       5/28/2008 10:21:24 PM
Interesting aside about the Rafale M.  The first nine Rafale Ms, which were F1 standard and equipped Flotille 12F on the CdG, have been mothballed rather than upgrade them to the F2 standard.  Flotille 12F now has 12 new Rafale M built to the F2 standard, and since there is only one (well, presently none active) carrier, there is no urgent need for more aircraft.  Production of Rafale Ms is continuing and 12F will have its full strength of 16 new Rafale Ms in time for CdG's scheduled return to service.

It's still an interesting choice to mothball those "older" F1s.  The first was delivered in 2000 I believe, the last in 2004.
 
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LB    Lack of Resources or Lack of Will   5/28/2008 11:06:18 PM
Did not Sarkozy promise to keep defense spending at 2% of GDP?  Is it possible that at 2% France can only afford the modest force mentioned above?  Doesn't the National Police (100,000 or so) also fall under the defense budget and to a degree inflate what is spent on the "military"?  I believe it's over 10% of the total budget.

I had thought the EU guidelines were 2 to 4%?  Interesting that Frances seeks a leadership role in the EU and NATO and yet is not a role model in terms of meeting defense responsibilities.

Does the combat aircraft projection capacity include naval aviation or is only the air force?  In any case it's rather sad.  OTH now the RN can perhaps feel better now that it might not really end up smaller then the French Navy.  It's all rather sad.  All of European NATO combined doesn't seem able to staff a very modest mission in Afghanistan and yet the major players keep reducing defense spending.

Of course if the above numbers meet France's requirements then it wouldn't make sense to spend any more.  Is the current defense budget and forces it provides what France needs?


 
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nyetneinnon       5/29/2008 1:01:38 AM

Interesting aside about the Rafale M.  The first nine Rafale Ms, which were F1 standard and equipped Flotille 12F on the CdG, have been mothballed rather than upgrade them to the F2 standard.  Flotille 12F now has 12 new Rafale M built to the F2 standard, and since there is only one (well, presently none active) carrier, there is no urgent need for more aircraft.  Production of Rafale Ms is continuing and 12F will have its full strength of 16 new Rafale Ms in time for CdG's scheduled return to service.

It's still an interesting choice to mothball those "older" F1s.  The first was delivered in 2000 I believe, the last in 2004.


Hmmm, maybe France could offer those mothballed F1s to India for free, if they choose Rafale under mig-21 replacement contract?
 
Hell, they've even flown over the Indian Ocean already on operational deployment, so they are no stranger.
 
Re: French carrier down time... maybe the US could lend-lease one for 2 yrs as needs may be?  Would be a fair gesture for a NATO and historic partner, while keeping the Flotille solvent, imo.
 
and Bluewings.. it's not that nations today are not as wealthy (they are wealthier than ever, in mankinds existence)... just  the ungodly infrastructure is most expensive to uphold and with unprecedented wealth transferred to a most demanding, plump mankind, the required 'services' and upkeep demanded henceforth strains the richest of the rich states and challenges the greatest of democracies.
 
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DarthAmerica       5/29/2008 8:09:27 AM
Whats interesting is the different directions of the Royal Navy and French Navy. The RN by committing to two new carriers and F-35s is seeking further integration with and influence in USN operations. The French Navy is essentially accepting a single carrier navy with an emphasis on the Med and areas immediately surrounding France. BOTH navies are also essentially acknowledging that the USN will control the worlds oceans and choke points for the next 50 to 100 years at least.

-DA

 
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ambush       5/29/2008 10:33:20 PM

Whats interesting is the different directions of the Royal Navy and French Navy. The RN by committing to two new carriers and F-35s is seeking further integration with and influence in USN operations. The French Navy is essentially accepting a single carrier navy with an emphasis on the Med and areas immediately surrounding France. BOTH navies are also essentially acknowledging that the USN will control the worlds oceans and choke points for the next 50 to 100 years at least.

-DA



WIthe a focus on the Med France really wouldn't need a carrier would it?
 
Sarkozy pushes Mediterranean Union  Mediterranean Union
 
 
 
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