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Subject: 63 Rafales for the UAE ?
Bluewings12    6/6/2008 9:43:49 AM
h*tp://www.defensenews.com/story.php?i=3565342&c=EUR&s=TOP

Seems serious .

Cheers .
 
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Bluewings12       6/6/2008 6:12:17 PM
The post at Defensenews has just been changed ???

What the Webmaster is doing ? I know for a fact that nothing has changed since ...
Weird from that site ...

Cheers .

 
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Herald12345       6/6/2008 11:21:14 PM
Don't get excited. He just pulled a fairy tale.  The site tries to report news NOT rumor.

Herald

 
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Bluewings12       6/7/2008 8:20:50 AM
A fairy tale ???

Ok :
(first 2 links are in french)

h*tp://www.lefigaro.fr/societes-francaises/2008/06/07/04010-20080607ARTFIG00128-abu-dhabi-envisage-d-acheter-le-rafale.php
h*tp://www.bonjourdubai.com/modules/news/article.php?storyid=1291
h*tp://www.easybourse.com/bourse-actualite/marches/uae-considers-replacing-mirage-fighters-with-french-rafales-466580
h*tp://www.metimes.com/Politics/2008/06/05/uae_eyes_frances_rafale_fighter/afp/

Cheers .

 
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flamingknives       6/7/2008 9:26:55 AM
Herald,

Put a sock in it.

I would suggest that if you could append an insult to the end of what you write and it wouldn't change the tone, you've done something wrong.
 
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Herald12345    All citing the same unnamed source.    6/7/2008 9:29:35 PM

A fairy tale ???

Ok :
(first 2 links are in french)

h*tp://www.lefigaro.fr/societes-francaises/2008/06/07/04010-20080607ARTFIG00128-abu-dhabi-envisage-d-acheter-le-rafale.php
h*tp://www.bonjourdubai.com/modules/news/article.php?storyid=1291
h*tp://www.easybourse.com/bourse-actualite/marches/uae-considers-replacing-mirage-fighters-with-french-rafales-466580
h*tp://www.metimes.com/Politics/2008/06/05/uae_eyes_frances_rafale_fighter/afp/

Cheers .

Same crap I saw in the Morrocco sale rumor and the Libya sale rumor.

So I am justifiably skeptical of this RUMOR.

FK, I may have to sheet comment close to the wind because of the rules, but nothing at the core in the way of FACTS has changed.

Herald

 

 
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Bluewings12       6/7/2008 9:42:25 PM
Ok , so our President Nicolas Sarkozy is a liar as well as the UAE government ?
It 's the UAE who proposed the deal !

Cheers .



 
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Herald12345       6/7/2008 10:30:32 PM
You are not in possession of the facts.

Reread your own sources and comprehend what was reported FROM ONE SOURCE an unnamed man..

It is your words you write here, you deal with YOUR claims of falsehood and YOU calling your president a liar. I just report what I read in the article and what I take from it. Its RUMOR. Not official. Meaningless noise.

Herald

 
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duplex       6/11/2008 10:30:09 AM
You can dismiss the news as  'arrant nonsense' ..The UAE won't  need new fighter planes any soon..
80 blk 60  brand new Vipers are being delivered and they have something that the crap Rafale  don't have.
AESA!!!!..   63 Rafales my @ss...masturbatory  fantasises of frogs...
 
 
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Goanna       6/11/2008 6:02:29 PM
I thought the Mirage 2000-9's were a fairly recent purchace. It seems odd that they would turn them over so soon.
 
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Phaid       6/12/2008 5:56:33 PM
This report doesn't really make any sense.

The UAE Mirage 2000 included an order of 30 new-build Mirage 2000-9s and a refit of 33 older UAE-specific Mirage 2000 models to -9 standard.  The original 33 Mirage 2000s were delivered starting in 1989 and the new-build machines were delivered starting in 2003.

So the new-build 2000-9s are brand new, less than 5 years old, and even the refits are all less than 19 years old.  At best I could see them replacing the refit machines with Rafales, but considering how much they just invested in their Block 60s that doesn't make a lot of sense.

I think what's really going on here is someone got confused about the potential Greek purchase of Rafales.  The report on the UAE Mirage replacement came out at the exact time Sarkozy was negotiating with the Greeks for a purchase of 40 Rafales.  Greece was originally going to buy 60 Eurofighters, then changed their mind and bought 30 F-16 Block 52s instead, saying they would hold off on a decision on the remainder of the fighter requirement.  France has been pushing hard for them to buy Rafales instead of more F-16s.
 
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Dredd       6/12/2008 8:14:21 PM
Noone got confused about anything. Sarkozy said on greek television that the greek government should consider replacing the aging still not upgraded 20 Mirages 2000 of the hellenic air force with Rafales, just as the UAE government decided to do. The deal proposal is said to be particularly good with the obvious aim to guarantee the presence of french fighters in the hellenic air force for the next 30 years. Journalistic sources report that the Americans support the french bid under the table, so that the greek government doesn't buy the Eurofighter Typhoon. Greece wants to buy 40 modern fighters to renew its fleet with deliveries starting 2012. It's almost certain that Greece will choose a european fighter, as F-35 will be made available later. Hellenic air force buys traditionally american and french aircraft, so it makes sense that the Americans don't want a third rival (EADS) in future competitions of the hellenic air force.
 
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Dredd       6/12/2008 8:21:09 PM
Noone got confused about anything. Sarkozy said on greek television that the greek government should consider replacing the aging still not upgraded 20 Mirages 2000 of the hellenic air force with Rafales, just as the UAE government decided to do. The deal proposal is said to be particularly good with the obvious aim to guarantee the presence of french fighters in the hellenic air force for the next 30 years. Journalistic sources report that the Americans support the french bid under the table, so that the greek government doesn't buy the Eurofighter Typhoon. Greece wants to buy 40 modern fighters to renew its fleet with deliveries starting 2012. It's almost certain that Greece will choose a european fighter, as F-35 will be made available later. Hellenic air force buys traditionally american and french aircraft, so it makes sense that the Americans don't want a third rival (EADS) in future competitions of the hellenic air force.
 
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Herald12345       6/12/2008 9:20:33 PM

Noone got confused about anything. Sarkozy said on greek television that the greek government should consider replacing the aging still not upgraded 20 Mirages 2000 of the hellenic air force with Rafales, just as the UAE government decided to do. The deal proposal is said to be particularly good with the obvious aim to guarantee the presence of french fighters in the hellenic air force for the next 30 years. Journalistic sources report that the Americans support the french bid under the table, so that the greek government doesn't buy the Eurofighter Typhoon. Greece wants to buy 40 modern fighters to renew its fleet with deliveries starting 2012. It's almost certain that Greece will choose a european fighter, as F-35 will be made available later. Hellenic air force buys traditionally american and french aircraft, so it makes sense that the Americans don't want a third rival (EADS) in future competitions of the hellenic air force.

That makes no sense.......
a. Why should we allow a Falcon sale to go a glimmering?
b. Why should we EVER  champion the  Rafale over our  one of own birds?
c. Why should we champion the Rafale over Typhoon? 
d. Why should we champion the Rafale at all?

I would like the:
a. politcal explanation.
b. economic explanation
c. technical explanation
d. ETHICAL explanation
that would make sense for AMERICA to champion such a sale.

Herald

 
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Phaid    Dredd reply   6/13/2008 1:22:26 AM
Noone got confused about anything. Sarkozy said on greek television that the greek government should consider replacing the aging still not upgraded 20 Mirages 2000 of the hellenic air force with Rafales, just as the UAE government decided to do.

Your post is full of factual errors and flat-out nonsense.  Yes, as I said, Greece is negotiating the purchase of 40 Rafales.  The HAF originally had a fleet of 40 Mirage 2000EG/BGs.  In 2000 they ordered 15 new Mirage 2000-5Mk2 and had 10 of the 2000EGs converted to -5Mk2 standard.  In sum, they have 25 modern 2000Mk2s and only 11 unupgraded Mirages.  And please feel free to cite a "journalistic source" for your claim that the U.S. is supporting the Rafale sale.  That is absolute rubbish considering the HAF is a longtime buyer of American aircraft, most recently the 30 F-16 Block 52s in 2005.

There is absolutely no evidence to support that the UAE government has "decided to do" anything.  Every single news source about this "event" cites a report from the UAE's WAM news agency.  Here is the actual WAM press release:

Abu Dhabi, June 5th, 2008 (WAM) -The government of the UAE has confirmed that preliminary discussions have been held with the government of France on the potential purchase of a new generation of Rafale aircraft to replace the existing mirage fleet as of 2013.

Not exactly swimming with details, and not a single news agency has come up with any new information about the "deal" since.  French press reports about it said that neither government nor commercial discussions had taken place.  I thought it was rather amusing that both Sarkozy and Edelstenne were quoted as saying "this is good news" -- it was obviously news to them as well.  As I said, it is much more likely that this UAE "source" simply got confused, and reported on the Greek negotiations as if they were taking place in the UAE.  Media incompetence knows no borders.  Even if not, this is about as much of a done deal as the Rafale sales to Morocco and Libya.
 
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Dredd       6/13/2008 4:06:29 AM
Well, I know you do it for the sport of it as you know I'm right but let's play if you want. First, Greece has at this very moment 15 new bought Mirages 2000-5 plus 10 upgraded to this standard older Mirages 2000 plus 20 not upgraded Mirages 2000. Second, I heard myself Sarkozy talking about the UAE deal on greek television. So, it's something that all Greeks can confirm and it was written in every greek newspaper. Third, Sarkozy is very good friend of the USA and Rafale, as much as you hate it, has american subsystems as every western aircraft. So you should love it a bit more. Fourth, Greece plans to buy some extra F-16 Block 52 to cover attrition losses and 40 4th generation aircraft deliveries starting 2012. The one buy is independent from the other. Furthermore, Greece will order 60-80 F-35 after 2014. Greek government estimates that even if we ordered F-35 now we wouldn't get it before 2020. As for the buy of 40 4th generation aircraft the only american aircraft which will contend is the Super Hornet. HAF believes that it is inferior to european 4th generation aircraft although it is more mature presently. For that reason and for political reasons (after all Greece is an EU-member state) Greece is more likely to buy the Eurofighter, but now, after the very good french proposal, Rafale has also a chance. Why do the Americans prefer the Rafale over the Eurofighter for Greece? Greece has in the past and will in the future buy american and french aircraft. So the Americans are certain that Rafale will be present in HAF in the future even in small numbers. This is now even more probable after the Sarkozy replacement proposal. US, knowing that the Super Hornet has no chance whatsoever, champion the Rafale over the Eurofighter, because if Greece bought Eurofighter, it would probably also buy Rafale, and then it wouldn't be so sure that the next big buy would be F-35. HAF cannot support three different types of modern aircraft. The journalistic sources I cites is the greek military magazine "Strategy" ("ÓôñáôçãéêÞ"). Any other question?
 
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