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Subject: USAF says whoops, our bad on KC-45 costs
Phaid    6/13/2008 6:32:02 AM
WASHINGTON -- The Air Force has conceded it chose the more expensive option in awarding a $35 billion contract for refueling tankers to a team led by Northrop Grumman Corp. instead of Boeing Co., Boeing said Thursday.

Although the Air Force said it cannot legally comment on the tanker proposals, the evaluation process or its selection, Northrop confirmed that the Air Force has found that the Boeing tanker proposal included cheaper life-cycle costs.

seattlepi.nwsource.com/local/6420ap_boeing_tanker_fight.html
 
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Herald12345    Well now.........   6/13/2008 7:52:35 AM
I can see Boeing screaming bloody murder about this one.

Round Two in the courts and Congress!

Herald

 
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Heorot       6/15/2008 7:58:53 AM
"Air Force has found that the Boeing tanker proposal included cheaper life-cycle costs."

Perhaps the Air Force didn't believe Boeing's figues. After the bribery debacle, there is probably a lack of trust in Boeing's honesty!

I can't believe that the life cycle costs of a more modern design with minimum modifications is going to be more expensive than a new design cobbled together from several old aircraft with major changes required to make it work. Airbus have a lot of data on the life cycle costs of their airframe. Boeing has none on its proposed 'plane.



 
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Herald12345    Maybe after the recent spate of runway accidents and other "minor" Airbus accidents    6/15/2008 2:16:22 PM

"Air Force has found that the Boeing tanker proposal included cheaper life-cycle costs."

Perhaps the Air Force didn't believe Boeing's figues. After the bribery debacle, there is probably a lack of trust in Boeing's honesty!

I can't believe that the life cycle costs of a more modern design with minimum modifications is going to be more expensive than a new design cobbled together from several old aircraft with major changes required to make it work. Airbus have a lot of data on the life cycle costs of their airframe. Boeing has none on its proposed 'plane.



the USAF is taking another good hard look at the Airbus flying PoJ?

Herald
 
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Herald12345    Maybe after the recent spate of runway accidents and other "minor" Airbus accidents    6/15/2008 2:22:51 PM
Addendum.



As to the other assertion.........

Sometimes you just have to wonder at the obtuseness of the commentators on this board. BOEING institutionally knows a hell of a lot more about aerial tankers than either Northrop Grumman or AIRBUS.

Herald

 
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dwightlooi       6/15/2008 2:59:10 PM
I think Boeing has a point... if offering payload capacity and/or additional fuel over the required amounts earned the A330 based KC45 additional points -- which looks like the case given that both tenders met the requirements and the 767 is a cheaper aircraft to fly and probably cost no more to service -- then this should have been made obvious on the FRP. If this is the case it should have been a KC-777 vs A330 run off. No twin, in fact no single deck widebody, offers more fuel, more range and/or payload than the 777-200LR. This IS the longest range passenger aircraft in service today with a 9420 nm (17,446 km) unrefueled range with a up to 301 passengers and their baggage -- that is about 400 nm longer and with more payload than the A340-500 High Gross Weight.
 
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LB    Did the USAF say that   6/16/2008 2:41:38 AM
In commentary on the story I have read that the USAF was not cited in the story only Boeing.  In any case GAO is supposed to rule by June 19th on Boeing's protest.  All this aside it's always been a tad open to debate whether this deal actually gets through Congress. 
 
There's already reports circulating that some bases would need more work to fit the KC-45 such as larger hangers and stronger runways (Sen Cantwell's letter is on the web) and so the total cost might be higher than the USAF initially told Congress.  Look for more investigations and/or Congress mandating a new contest or just going Boeing.
 


 
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DropBear    Herald   6/16/2008 3:57:19 AM
 
Why is the Airbus A330/MRTT/KC-45 based option a piece of junk? Curious.
 
Several Airforces have selected it and don't think it is that bad a product.
 
I think the fuss is more about domestic American politics and the usual "built here is best" argument.
 
The A332 looks set to be a good gravy stroking platform.
 
 
 
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Herald12345       6/16/2008 4:01:08 AM
Contact me at my garbage drop, DB.

Herald

 
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Goanna       6/16/2008 4:39:41 AM
"BOEING institutionally knows a hell of a lot more about aerial tankers than either Northrop Grumman or AIRBUS."

Why, because they have deliverd 2 in 35 yrs?...late and over budget..?
 
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Herald12345       6/16/2008 4:56:14 AM

"BOEING institutionally knows a hell of a lot more about aerial tankers than either Northrop Grumman or AIRBUS."

Why, because they have deliverd 2 in 35 yrs?...late and over budget..?

Come again, McGee?

And yet again?

And yet again?

And yet again?

[quoting]

From the primary article cited.

It is now three months since the Air Force shocked the world by awarding the contract for its next-generation aerial-refueling tanker to Northrop Grumman and the European parent of Airbus.

Throughout that time, service officials have insisted that the process by which the winner was chosen was transparent and fair. But the service has failed to answer even the most basic questions about how the decision was made to deny the contract to Boeing, the widely favored incumbent.

[More:]

The Government Accountability Office is expected to issue a ruling on Boeing's protest of the outcome in mid-June. Whatever it finds, the Air Force has some explaining to do...

1. The Air Force says it would cost roughly the same amount to develop, manufacture and operate 179 next-generation tankers, regardless of whether they are based on the Boeing 767 or the Airbus A330. But the Airbus plane is 27% heavier than the Boeing plane, and burns over a ton more fuel per flight hour. With fuel prices headed for the upper stratosphere, how can both planes cost the same amount to build and operate over their lifetimes?

2. The Air Force says it would be equally risky to develop the Boeing tanker or the Airbus tanker -- after forcing Boeing to substantially increase the time and money required to develop its version. But Boeing proposed to build its tanker on the same assembly line where it has already constructed hundreds of the same airframe, whereas Airbus proposes to build its tanker at a plant and with a workforce that don't yet exist in Alabama. How can the risks be equal?

3. The Air Force says that a computerized simulation of how the competing tankers would function in an actual wartime scenario strongly favored the larger Airbus plane. But the simulation assumed longer runways, stronger asphalt and more parking space than actually exists at forward bases, and failed to consider the consequences of losing bases in wartime. How can such unrealistic assumptions be relevant to the selection of a next-generation tanker?

4. The Air Force says the Northrop-Airbus team received higher ratings on past performance than the Boeing team, based on a review of programs deemed similar to the future tanker. But Boeing built all 600 of the tankers in the current Air Force fleet, whereas Northrop and Airbus have never delivered a single tanker equipped with the refueling boom the Air Force requires. How can Northrop and Airbus have superior past performance?

I could go on. The Air Force refused to consider Boeing cost data based on 10,000,000 hours of operating the commercial version of the 767, substituting instead repair costs based on the 50-year-old KC-135 tanker. It said it would not award extra points for exceeding key performance objectives, and then proceeded to award extra points. It said it wanted to acquire a "medium" tanker to replace its cold war refueling planes, and ended up picking a plane twice as big.

Whatever else this process may have been, it definitely was not transparent. Even now, neither of the competing teams really understands why the competition turned out the way it did. It would be nice to hear from the Air Force about how key tradeoffs were made, because at present it looks like a double standard prevailed in the evaluation of the planes offered by the two teams.

Ist das klar?

Herald
 
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DropBear       6/16/2008 5:18:23 AM
Contact me at my garbage drop, DB.

Herald

Mate, not sure I have it?

Might have purged my system a while ago.

Can you flick it again?

 - DB.

 
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Herald12345       6/16/2008 5:22:06 AM
raymondhall64@yahoo.co.uk

Herald

 
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LB    WTO and GAO   6/16/2008 10:20:05 PM
Besides the GAO report due out soon the WTO might rule this month on the entire matter of Airbus being subsidized and it's a fairly sure bet that if the WTO finds that Airbus is being unfairly subsidized then the US Congress will not buy Airbus.  The USAF is not going to get Airbus tankers one way or the other.
 
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eldnah       6/18/2008 1:17:19 PM
Well, tommorrow the GAO is supposed to report. Too bad this thread wasn't tacked on to update the "Northrop/EADS wins KC-45 Contract" thread for the sake of topical continuity. It had 300+ posts and despite some nonesense was a pretty decent discussion.
 
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eldnah       6/18/2008 3:05:05 PM
Hot off the presses about 1 hour ago the GAO backed Boeing's protest and reccommended re-opening the bidding!!!!
 
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