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Subject: B-2 Spirit... a ghost project?
Sauron    7/11/2008 8:31:56 PM
Hi people, i've been wondering... does the B-2 have a purpose nowadays? Its design could have much more sense during the Cold War... but now? Isn't it a Cold War weapon that came to the world too late? It just doesn't seem to have a clear advantage to have 20 B-2s instead of say... 20 or more Raptors

Anyway, what do you people think?
 
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JFKY       7/11/2008 9:46:35 PM
Dude I'm thinking that this is shoudda, woudda, coudda question...the B-2 began in the Reagan Administration, the Cold War was going strong...it came on-line as the Cold War ended?  The Raptor was nowhere to be seen...We had the B-2.  We haven't invented the Transmogrifier yet, so we can't covert B-2's into Raptors, so whatcha gonna do?
 
The B-2 is still useful, as both a conventional bomber, Afghanistan/Iraq or in high threat environments North Korea or the Straits of Taiwan...
 
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Sauron       7/11/2008 10:20:03 PM
Yes JFKY, the aircraft came on-line when the Cold War was over. Of course, i wasn't actually saying they should or could be converted to Raptors, however, the Spirit primary mission really looks out of targets nowadays. Correct me if i'm wrong, but can't Raptors  clean air defenses as good as a B-2?
 
My question is... Is the Spirit's ability to nuke undetected really useful nowadays?

 
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gf0012-aust       7/11/2008 11:00:12 PM
e.g.
 
- depth of mission
- persistence
- mass on target/loadout
- range
- weapons mix
- greater battlespace awareness and self management.
 
I can think of more than a dozen other reasons why the B2 has functional merit/advantage over an F-22
 
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ArtyEngineer    Sauron   7/11/2008 11:54:38 PM
Dont want to sound rude, but thats actually a pretty silly question which even some very basic research on the publicly available info for these birds should have been able to answer for you. 
 
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smitty237    Same old song   7/12/2008 8:33:08 PM
I think it all boils down to a common but fundamentally flawed philosophy that if a particular weapon or tactic isn't vitally important right this second, then it probably won't be important in the future either.  It is this sort of philosophy that has forced militaries to reinvent the wheel on numerous occasions.  For example, after WWII many nations discontinued sniper programs because they didn't think they were necessary............at least until they suddenly were again, and then they scrambled to develop rifles and training.  The same can be said for COIN aircraft and other weapons that had to be resurrected from the dead when a country suddenly realized that the reasons that a particular weapon was invented in the first place were still valid.  B-2s may not be all that useful against the Taliban or Al Qaeda, but they would be damn useful against the Chinese, Iranians, North Koreans, or Russians (remember them?).  A B-2 may be nearly invisible to most radar, but it still can't shoot down an SU-27 that may happen to stumble upon it.  That's what the F-22s are for. 
 
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WarNerd       7/13/2008 1:00:03 PM
Let's make some comparisons, difficult as it is with aircraft designed uncompromisingly for vastly different missions.
 
Unrefueled range without external tanks.
B-2 -- 6400 miles                         F-22 -- 2000 miles
Clearly the B-2 has the advantage here.  There are a lot of places that an F-22 just cannot reach on it's own without external tanks, which negate stealth, or refueling from non-stealthy tankers close to the target.  The shorter range of the F-22 cause it to be forced to use a direct and predictable path to the target, which is how an F-117 got shot down over Yugoslavia, where as the B-2 can use indirect approaches.
Internal bomb load
B-2 -- 50,000 lb                         F-22 -- 2000 lb
Again the B-2 has the advantage here.  Actually, the advantage is even larger than it appears because the F-22 cannot carry anything bigger than a 1000 lb bomb internally, which eliminates a lot of weapons like the big bunker busters. 
Stealth (size range depending on sources)
B-2 radar image size of bee or mosquito      F-22 radar image size of falcon or sparrow 
Again B-2 has the advantage here.  The F-22 is designed for tactical stealth, nearly impossible to target until it is too late.  The B-2 is strategic stealth, most of the time you can only infer that it was there by examining the bomb craters.
Air superiority
B-2 -- what's that?                      F-22 -- the best
There is nothing else in the air that can compare to the F-22 until the F-35 is deployed.  The B-2 ddoes not do air superiority, period.
 
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Shaken       7/14/2008 2:35:41 PM

Dude I'm thinking that this is shoudda, woudda, coudda question...the B-2 began in the Reagan Administration, the Cold War was going strong...it came on-line as the Cold War ended?  The Raptor was nowhere to be seen...We had the B-2.
Actually, the B-2 was running under the CARTER administration. The B-2 program is the reason Carter cancelled the B-1, since it was clear the B-2 would be far more capable. (B-1 was later restarted for entirely political reasons).

-- Shaken - out --

 
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StobieWan       7/17/2008 7:26:24 AM
The B2 was designed to loiter over Soviet territory taking out silos and mobile missile sites in the face of a very hostile air defence environment, using nuclear weapons all the way. It's gone on to carry a wide array of conventional precision guided munitions and right now, I can easily think of a couple possible conflicts where that capability will be invaluable.
 
For myself, the best ballistic missile defence starts at home - the home of the launching country...If the command centres can't transmit, the silos are being picked off and TEL convoys are being targeted live, in real time, that tends to indicate that I'll never have to find out if the BMD shield works as advertised,
 
Ian
 
 

 
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Thomas    Siloes   7/25/2008 8:49:05 PM
As long as there are nations that have ICBM's in siloes, there is a mission for the B-2.
 
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DropBear       7/25/2008 10:02:00 PM
 
Sauron,
 
On behalf of a greatful nation, I would like to propose that your good Uncle Sam donates free of charge these pesky irrelevant B-2 bombers of yours and in return my nation will pay the full upfront costs of extending your Raptor production line a further 20 airframes.
 
Unlike your good self (nation), we do indeed feel a great need and desire for such punch and global reach, and as there are certain recalcitrant neighbours to our north that from time to time need a lesson in the merits of democracy, we would be quite happy to accept your bombers to our friendly shores.
 
Have we a deal?
 
 
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ambush       7/25/2008 10:14:20 PM
 

If I may add another purpose the B-2 serves:  Tying up a potential enemy?s resources. Because the B-2 exists potential enemies must dedicate resources in finding a way to counter it/defend against it. If the B-2 did not exist those resources could be dedicated toward other things like better submarines and anti-ship cruise missiles to threaten our carriers.

If your enemy did not have tanks would you be spending a lot time developing anti-tank weapons?

 
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