I think that sums up a lot , BUT I remind you that the Rafale pilots are not allowed to use active jamming during drills with Allies (SPECTRA and OSF have only been used to find the opponent).

In which case then surely the Vipers were not allowed to use active jamming either (ASPIS and ALE-50 towed decoys).  Well, it's reassuring to hear that Rafales can beat F-16s close in:  Good job.  I guess this means the FAF should be well-equipped to fight Singapore or the UAE if they need to.

 

Jim :

""

Jim :

Why did you choose these 2 nations as possible enemies ?

I thought so Bear , but I just wanted to be sure ! lol ...

 

Cheers .

 

 

Recently , the USAF invited some Rafale F2s to do some advanced dogfighting against some F-16s Blk 52 .
It was a one v one confrontation repeated multiple times . The drill did last 3 days . The French and the Americans pilots had to find each other in a big portion of sky (100x100 km/square), then close in and go dogfighting .

The French Airforce only released the results of the first day :
6-2 in favor of the Rafale .
It has been on the French news on the main TV channel TF1 .
Video :
h*tp://videos.tf1.fr/video/news/0,,3931177,00-contre-rafale-vrai-faux-combat-.html

Quick translation of the video (the good bits):
French pilot : " we 're going to separate in the zone and then try to find each other , one Rafale and one F-16 , then go do WVR . We feel that the USAF is very curious about the Rafale and we think that they know what they are up against , so I think that we 're going to bluff them "
Second French Pilot talk :
" It went well , the F-16s were very cool to fight against and we managed to shootdown them from time to time , it was good "

Commentator :
"The Americans admit that they have been impressed by the French fighter "

The USAF pilot :
" The Rafale is an aircraft with unique capabilities which can be flown in a very aggressive manner , more than the F-16 . But you know , the most important is the capabilities of the pilot (!)"
*****************
I think that sums up a lot , BUT I remind you that the Rafale pilots are not allowed to use active jamming during drills with Allies (SPECTRA and OSF have only been used to find the opponent).
It also shows that the APG-68(v9) radar (with a quoted range of 300km )doesn 't give an adge to the Falcon against the PESA RBE2 and the "discret" RCS of the Rafale .
It also shows that MICA is a very good dogfighting missile and does its job and it also shows that Rafale is more manoeuvrable than the F-16 Blk52 (which is the best dogfighther that the USAF has) .

I dare to say that if SPECTRA was used to its full extent (active jamming), the result would have been 6-0 .

Cheers .

Leave it to Strategypage's own favorite troll to wildly misinterpret a training exercise, speculate on technology and tactics he can't comprehend and base all of his conclusions on scripted limited results covering only 1/3 of the event. Woo Hoo good work Bluewings!

 

 

-DA

I was sure to get some bitter comments and responses flirting with bashing and it 's the case .

 

smitty , the F-16 might be a 30 years old design but it is still the yardstick in the USAF for dogfighting , it can easily beat the Eagle and the SH cannot have a chance in hell agaisnt the Falcon . Furthermore , how many times US posters wrote that the F-16 could outclass the Rafale (and the Mirage) in dogfighting with its superior radar (?) , superior thrust (?) , superior agility (?) and superior missiles (?) . SP is full of these posts ...

 

If the score was in favor of the Falcon , many posters would say "how many times we told you so , BW ?" 

But it is not , so since you cannot bash the Rafale anymore as a poor dogfighter (?) , you shoot the messenger .

I 've heard just about any possible crap to bash and look down on the Rafale :

It 's PESA radar is crap , has a short range and is almost useless .

It 's delta wings coupled to canards bleed speed during cornering .

It 's missiles are in no way on the par with the US ones .

Etc , etc ...

 

Well , what say you now ?

 

DA , stick to your Bradleys and Strikers and don 't come to me with your usual nonsense . In fact , it 's you who 's trolling , not me . The exercise was held by the USAF and the rules were simple : find each other and fight on one v one .

So , cut the crap .

We 'll see how Rafale does against the Typhoon very soon , it is just unfortunate that the Raptor is not flying with or against the Rafale this year at Red Flag , but time will come .

 

Cheers .

When you can debate the technical merits of your assessments or bring up militarily relevant discussion topics then you can talk to me. Also, stop playing pretend with us kid. You are as obvious as the sun in the sky.

 

 

-DA

Red Flag is a school. Your people went to class and we really don't know if they got a passing grade since we are not privy to the teacher's marks for the little froggie forces. That is classified. The quotes and story are pablem for the media and the french taxpayer. It wouldn't be much of a school if the instructors beat the crap out of everyone on every flight would it?

 

Your little story does not address what the rafale (or its pilots for that matter) is capable of against USAF squadrons of any stripe in a hot war.

 

Check Six

 

Rocky

Well, if we REALLY knew the MICA was so hot, we'd have dead pilots.  I assume these were administrative launches with preselected specs.

A little bit of reality checking to dispel Bluewings' usual fiction:

 

The F-16 unit in question is the 309th FS from Luke AFB.  They fly the F-16C/D Block 25, not the Block 52.  These are not even CCIP aircraft, much less Block 52 level.  They are the oldest F-16s in US service with the weakest thrust to weight ratio and the oldest systems.  The only units that still fly the 25 are ANG and training units.

 

The fighting is entirely WVR, so things like Spectra and radars don't really come into play.  There is no comparison of radars and all the nonsense about "discret" airplanes and inferior PESA radars is irrelevant.

 

The pilots in the article clearly explain how the exercise works.  The two aircraft fly out together, separate but remain in visual range, and then go for the merge.  It's strictly classic dogfighting.  Note that the air to air component is just one part of this exercise.  The goal of the Rafales is to learn to work with the USAF in preparation for Red Flag here, so the Rafales will also be taking part in joint air to ground missions and the like.

 

To be honest I would have expected an aircraft like the Rafale with its vaunted dogfighting capabilities to suffer zero losses.  Considering we're talking about geriatric F-16s built in 1984 against airframes that are 20 years newer, I'm not impressed. 

That 's it , it has started ... One more thread will go pear shape because of French/BW bashing .

I 'm gonna try to put things back on rails .

 

I 've got nothing to say to DA because he didn 't say anything .

Rocky doesn 't know that the excercise in Luke was a "special" organized by the USAF after the French AdA did ask for it .

These close in engagements were a warm up before Red Flag . The objectives were to compare the operational and tactical capabilities of the French Pilots from the 1/7 "Provence" Squadron which is not a real Fighter unit but but a polyvalent orientated wing , understand that they 're not an Interception Squadron . Then , the F-16s involved were not Blk 52 as I said earlier (my mistake and I apologize for it) but Blk 25 , 40 and 50 . Phaid has it wrong too .

Link :

ht*p://www.defense.gouv.fr/air/base/breves/2008/juillet/des_rafale_a_luke_aux_etats_unis

 

The exercise had nothing to do with the rules employed at Red Flag  , as I understand from some French military forums , it was a free fight where both sides could use whatever tactics or hardware they wanted , with all the usual safety rules applying . That should please Nichevo .

 

Phaid is also not doing his work properly :

The 309th Squadron is leaded by Lt Col Peter F. Davey and  the Squadron purpose is  (I quote) :

 Mission: Provide the finest single-seat, single-engine F-16 fighter pilots for the combat Air Forces and produce top quality F-16 instructor pilots as well as training the world's finest fighter pilots and maintenance technicians.

They 're using Blk 42 F-16s .

 

Raptor did get the point of the drill , train together for futur missions , as N. Sarkozy promissed .

 

The whole point of my first post was to provide infos and to show that the Rafale is not a "eurocluck" as Herald like to call it so trivialy .

 

As much as the Typhoon is full of bugs and has a very poor airframe (from the very word of some people at EADS) , the Rafale is now maturing very well and is doing its bits alongside the US Fighters over A-Stan , dropping missiles on the talibans which are not even in the US inventory (AASM-2) .

 

Is it so hard for some of you to admit the quality of our latest airplane ? Myself , I 've got nothing to do with it (the Rafale) , call me a wanker if you like but stop bashing the Rafale for God sake !

As I type , there is probably no better aircraft in the World capable to do a polyvalent mission  as well as it does .

F-22 has almost no AtG capabilities , the F-35 doesn 't exist yet , the Typhoon is , well ... late and average . The only decent contenders are the latest SHs and the old F-16s . The SU-35s & Co are an unknown quantity , furthermore they have NO combat experience AT ALL .

It would be nice if you could think , discuss and write in a decent manner and use a appropriate tone , thanks .  I did not attack anyone personaly , so I expect some kind of politeness .

If you cannot debate in a fairplay manner , get lost .

 

Phaid , as much as I respect you (you know it) , I disagree with you . A 3 to 1 ratio is a spanking . Let me remind you that the Pilots of the 309th are not Irakis , Syrians or Pakistanis . They 're the 309th . That means that the French Pilots of the 1/7 "Provence" are to be accounted for and I as said earlier they are not specialists of the dogfight .

 

Cheers .

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Not that I agree with any of your nonsense assessments. However, assume in an actual shooting war with an F-16 blk 25 or F-16 blk 25 "like" aircraft. We are talking about a plane with a ~$20 to $30 million USD price tag, or 1/3 of the cost of a Rafale. How many Rafales could the CdG lose before becoming combat ineffective? 3 to 4? with a compliment of 10. Twice that for 20? Consider that you could not sortie all the Rafales at anyone time. Thats not very good. Considering the cost I'd like to see at least 2-3x that. Again though, nothing about this DACT training suggest any of BW conclusions are appropriate.

-DA