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Subject: Rafale F3 leading Brazilian F-X race on the promise of extensive tech transfer over Super Hornet
SlowMan    8/4/2009 3:43:03 PM
< link >

Contenders

Rafale F3 : $130 million per plane + extensive tech transfer
Super Hornet : $90 million per plane, weapons and support + will buy some parts from Brazilian suppliers.
Gripen NG : $60 million per plane. Will build half of NGs in Brazil.

Rafale F3 is favored over Super Hornet because of the promise of an extensive tech transfer.
 
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Bluewings12       9/23/2009 4:57:49 PM
Me :
""Anyway , why did you copy/paste what I said on a different thread ?""
 
Sorry my bad . I was thinking about something different . 
 
Cheers .
 
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usajoe1    BW   9/23/2009 5:13:50 PM
 
Joe , you ' re back on some stuff who has been debated times and times again . I could disprove many of your pseudo "facts" which are unsupported for the most and pure opinions for the others . Are we gonna start again with me postings hard datas and others insulting me for doing so ? I would rather not .
 
Really, which ones, the HMS, Targeting Pod, Towad Decoys, The more powerful radar(longer range), better high altitude performence, the fact that the Typhoon was built for Air Superiority, or the fact about the more powerful engines?
 
Regarding the proof about the Typhoon/Rafale encounters (BVR & WVR) , I let you do the searching (it is not so hard) . This way , you might learn it by yourself and you might even learn some more stuff during your search :-)
I'm taliking about real oblective sources, not fan boy internet sites, or what French pilots say.
 
You see Joe , what do you mean by ""the Typhoon's radar is more powerful, that is a fact"" ? Are you talking about the general output power , then you are right , or are you talking about the way to use the different radar modes interleaved (where you are wrong) ? 
 
The Radar is larger, has more powerful output, and longer range, which give it the edge in BVR combat, minues AWACS.
 
""The Typhoon can supercruise and the Rafale can't, that is a fact.""
 
Wrong again . The Rafale supercruise at Mach 1.2 with a central fuel tank and 4 Micas (data known here on SP for over 3 years) . Etc , etc ...
 
That is more internet fanboy make believe.
 

 
 
 
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Bluewings12       9/23/2009 5:14:14 PM
FJV :
""The French can allow a customer to heavily modify the Rafale.""
 
I 'm biting . What do you mean exactly ? If you 're talking about integration of indigenous weapons it is correct ,  but what "heavily modifications" are you talking about ? In what sense ?
 
Cheers .
 
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Bluewings12       9/23/2009 5:18:58 PM
Joe , if you can find better sources than French pilots , please let us know (hurray) !
Everything I said is true and I don 't want to waste time into another flame war than I am going to win .
No bad intended , just look into it .
 
Cheers .
 
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Bluewings12       9/23/2009 5:38:04 PM
Joe , read my lips : this is not a Rafale vs. Typhoon thread .
If you want to crate another thread , feel free but we 're talking about Brazil buying stuff .
 
Cheers .
 
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Bluewings12       9/23/2009 6:05:34 PM
I am right now reading the French news and talking to friends about our President 's speech (4 hours ago) and it seems that the Brazilian deal is now a done deal .
 
The other very important point about Geopolitics is what is going on right now at the G20 . Iran is in a bad position .
N. Sarkozy is talking about a French meaningful response if Iran is not changing its way . Russian Prime Medvedev and UK G. Brown are following (!?) . B. Obama seems to prefer further talk .
 
Am I reading right or did I take some kind of LSD ? Has the World changed this much in 2 years ???
 
Cheers .
 
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usajoe1    BW   9/23/2009 6:16:46 PM
Joe , read my lips : this is not a Rafale vs. Typhoon thread .
 
LOL! look I don't want to turn this into a Rafale vs Typhoon thread either, but you making this stupid statment
"Everything I said is true and I don 't want to waste time into another flame war than I am going to win ."  is not going to go unanswered.
 
Tell me which one of this is not true, and don't run around the question
 
"Really, which ones, the HMS, Targeting Pod, Towad Decoys, The more powerful radar(longer range), better high altitude performence, the fact that the Typhoon was built for Air Superiority, or the fact about the more powerful engines?"
 
Facts always trump assumptions
 
I love the F-22 ass much as you love the Rafale but you don't see me posting about the Raptor every day and talking about how great it is and how it will destroy every thing in the sky. You know why I don't do it, because I let the facts talk. Any body who knows anything about fighter planes knows what the plane is capabale of, and I don't need to keep posting love stories of the Raptor to convince people of the fact. The reason people do what you do on here on a daily basis is to prove to themselves something that deep inside they know it is not true. If the Rafale was a good as you say it is, then there will be no need for you to defend it.
 
You can't say I hate the French, because I defended the French Navy, when Russian fanboys were out here saying the Russian navy was much more powerful than the MN. I also defended the Leclerc when many people here were bashing it. I also said that France builds some of the best armored vehicles in the world. I also said that even the CDG which had many problems, was still the only Nuclear powerd true carrier in the world and gave France the capabilities that no other country outside of the US had. When I see the facts I call them out. I have defended Russian, French, German, and British equipment and also slamed some of them, so for me to say that at the moment the Typhoon is a better A2A platform does not mean I am bashing France, it means the facts that are available at the moment to the public make it so.
 
With that being said we can return to the topic.
 
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Bluewings12       9/23/2009 6:41:00 PM
Joe , I respect and understand what you just said .
I know that you are not bashing France (you proved it alright), but the technical questions you are talking about have been answered many times already : the HMS is a bonus and not really needed yet , the Damoclès pod is on its way , the towed decoy is a non-sense with the Rafale , the AESA RBE2 is perfect and beats the actual MESA Captor hands down , the marginal edge of the Typhoon when flying high and fast is what it is : a marginal edge , and last but not least , the Rafale doesn 't need more powerful engines . This story has been grossly exagerated for marketing and has been taken onboard by internet fans who don 't know all the strings .
Listen Joe , the FAF and MN did NOT ASK for the latest M88-3 engines . They are perfectly happy with the actual updated version of the M88-2 . What is true , is the fact that some Nations would like to try the Fighter with more powerful engines .
There is a big difference , don 't you think ?
Between you and me , why they wouldn 't ask if it it possible ;-)
 
Cheers .
 
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Bluewings12       9/23/2009 6:54:58 PM
Sorry about my bad english , I am having friends at home (with a rather hot debate about French Subs to Brazil) and I 'm typing fast .
 
Cheers .
 
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Das Kardinal       9/24/2009 6:45:34 AM

Joe , I respect and understand what you just said .

I know that you are not bashing France (you proved it alright), but the technical questions you are talking about have been answered many times already : the HMS is a bonus and not really needed yet , the Damoclès pod is on its way , the towed decoy is a non-sense with the Rafale , the AESA RBE2 is perfect and beats the actual MESA Captor hands down , the marginal edge of the Typhoon when flying high and fast is what it is : a marginal edge , and last but not least , the Rafale doesn 't need more powerful engines . This story has been grossly exagerated for marketing and has been taken onboard by internet fans who don 't know all the strings .

Listen Joe , the FAF and MN did NOT ASK for the latest M88-3 engines . They are perfectly happy with the actual updated version of the M88-2 . What is true , is the fact that some Nations would like to try the Fighter with more powerful engines .


There is a big difference , don 't you think ?


Between you and me , why they wouldn 't ask if it it possible ;-)


 

Cheers .



I'd add some nuances here : the RBE2 AESA has a theoretical advantages against the Captor 'especially the mechanical version), but saying it's perfect is a little bit too much, no ? Perfect for the Rafale's intended missions, maybe. Anyway the truth's hidden behind secrecy, as usual.
I do have a strong feeling that the AdlA and Navy wouldn't mind a more powerful M88 in the absolute, but rather they're doing fine with the current one and aren't ready to pay the premium (in terms of price and maintenance) for a beefier variant.
Of course, the UAE seems to have a "more bling ! more bling ! we can afford it !" complex when it comes to military hardware :-)
 
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sentinel28a       9/25/2009 3:54:21 PM
Hell yes, Kardinal.  Look at all the doodads the UAE stuck on its F-16Es.  Kinda makes me wonder...they've got advanced targeting, conformal fuel tanks...but the UAE isn't at war with anyone at the moment, and has never tried to take on Israel.  (And for all the anti-Israeli rhetoric that occasionally comes out of there, aren't likely to try.)  Which means--the UAE is keeping a very wary eye on Iran.  I don't see a joint Arab-Israeli strike on the Iranians, but I wouldn't be surprised if some of the Gulf Kingdoms wouldn't take advantage of the confusion after a post-Israeli strike to get in some digs of their own.  The Bahrainis in particular utterly loathe the Iranians.
 
And no, BW, you haven't been dropping LSD.  You have a good man in Sarkozy, someone who's finally realized that the Iranians are a hell of a lot closer to France than they are to the US.  Obama is just an incompetent who thinks all it takes to get the Iranians to play nice is a good speech and a hug.  Plus Sarkozy's old lady is a lot more sexay than Michelle.
 
Does the Rafale have an option for a different engine besides the M88?  I ask because the F-16 can accept at least two different kinds of engines, and I just wondered if Dassault has considered this.
 
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FJV       9/25/2009 5:46:00 PM
I 'm biting . What do you mean exactly ? If you 're talking about integration of indigenous weapons it is correct ,  but what "heavily modifications" are you talking about ? In what sense ?
 
Custom electronics, making a dedicated EW Rafale, putting in your own radar or putting several radars on the Rafale. Or maybe modding the Rafale's wings similar to how the Israelis and South Africans modded Mirages. Maybe put on a thrust vectoring nozzle.
 
I suspect it is easier to mod a Rafale than a JSF, because a change you make in one area is less likely to effect something else in another. My hunch is that the more intergrated the systems are the more difficult it is to avoid having a change  in one area effect something somewhere else. My hunch is that because of this reason the F22 is hugely complex to upgrade (each change will have to be checked against the entire F22 systems and all their interactions).
 
Also I've read somewhere that mission critical components not manufactured in the US will not be installed in the JSF even when they are of better quality. This suggest to me that a nation putting custom electronics in a JSF to make an EW version will not be appreciated. Modern AESA like antennas with a narrow beam could theoretically jam one arc in front of a plane and still deny detection of the EW signal outside that arc. (if you have the sidelobes under control)
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
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Bluewings12       9/25/2009 8:36:33 PM
Sentinel :
""Hell yes, Kardinal.  Look at all the doodads the UAE stuck on its F-16Es.  Kinda makes me wonder...they've got advanced targeting, conformal fuel tanks...but the UAE isn't at war with anyone at the moment, and has never tried to take on Israel.  (And for all the anti-Israeli rhetoric that occasionally comes out of there, aren't likely to try.)  Which means--the UAE is keeping a very wary eye on Iran.  I don't see a joint Arab-Israeli strike on the Iranians, but I wouldn't be surprised if some of the Gulf Kingdoms wouldn't take advantage of the confusion after a post-Israeli strike to get in some digs of their own.  The Bahrainis in particular utterly loathe the Iranians.""
 
Well , it took me time to try to understand what you meant . What you say is ... surprising and interesting .
The UAE are indeed very worried about Iran and this is the reason why they allowed France to set-up bases (Air and Navy) on their soil . They see it as a warranty (guarantee) for not being attacked from anyone , including Iran .
After building such new alliances in the Gulf , I was myself waiting for a stronger move from N. Sarkozy against Iran . It is part of France 's new position on the Middle-East .
It happens now .
France (and Sarkozy) is dead serious about Iran and I feel the same "urgent need" than back in 1991 before the GW1 .
Iran can 't get Nuclear weapons , it is a simple as that and if France and others have to bomb the sh*t out of their installations , we will . Then , letting israel do the job would lead to even more problems in the region .
 
To be honest , it would be better if Europe would take the lead on the Iranian problem for 2 reasons :
-1) nobody could say that the USA are "backing" Israel (usual Arab 's excuse)
-2) We do thing by the rules set by the UN and we follow them to the letter
 
To this extent , it seems that G. Brown and Medvedev are following .
 
""Obama is just an incompetent who thinks all it takes to get the Iranians to play nice is a good speech and a hug""
 
Not at all , you are wrong about Him . All He wants is to change the American mind on "How to spread the Democracy and free market around the World" . He doesn 't want you think "Fighters and Guns" as much as you did before . 
If Europe is getting harsher on Iran (we will) B. Obama is going to support us , no worries .
 
""Does the Rafale have an option for a different engine besides the M88?  I ask because the F-16 can accept at least two different kinds of engines, and I just wondered if Dassault has considered this.""
 
No . Snecma and its M88-2 and M88-3 series only .
 
Cheers .
 

 
 
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Bluewings12       9/25/2009 8:38:57 PM
FJV , gimme some time please . What you ask is interesting and I 'm having a bit of thinking before to post :-) .
 
Cheers .
 
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Bluewings12       9/25/2009 8:57:17 PM
Regarding Iran (maybe the wrong thread to talk about) but France , Russia , USA , UK and China have been looking into the Iranian nuclear program for a long time now and France , the USA and the UK just agreed on a new pressure on Iran .
The Iranian president is furious and is threatening (from the G20) :
 
""The United States, France and Great Britain will regret their shared condemnation of Iran building a second site for uranium enrichment, said Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad in New York.""
 
He 's going to get a harsh wake-up call soon ...
 
Cheers .
 
 
 
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