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Subject: Best All-Around Fighter of World War II
sentinel28a    10/13/2009 3:38:03 PM
Let's try a non-controversial topic, shall we? (Heh heh.) I'll submit the P-51 for consideration. BW and FS, if you come on here and say that the Rafale was the best fighter of WWII, I am going to fly over to France and personally beat you senseless with Obama's ego. (However, feel free to talk about the D.520.)
 
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45-Shooter    This was supposed to be a quote???   5/8/2013 8:44:55 PM


    how does the rate of roll in an air display relate to its actual performance? for any plane? they are always well within its limits its a display NOT a race
  My point exactly as stated above! Note that the Spit under fire in the first ten seconds of the clip does not change his angle of bank substantially!

also another point you keep raising, the aileron reversal on the Spit, this was proved to occur at 480mph on the MKI rising to 780mph on the MKXIV, so whilst you could hit it in a high speed dive in a MkI are you seriously claiming that a MKXIV was capable of 780mph? the speed needed to encounter aileron reversal?
  I am not, and never have been talking about "Aileron Reversal"! I am talking about the fact that as speed increases, the pilot's ability to cause the plane to roll is greatly reduced as the speed increases! In the Spit, there are two causes for this; 1. The force on the aileron is far from the center of the Spar's strength and it causes that beautiful elliptical wing to twist about the spar's axis. Since the rounded wing tip is behind that axis, it is pointing up at the same time as the aileron. Therefore it counteracts the force and slows the rate of roll. On early Spits, this was a huge problem and it was never fully cured, as you pointed out above. 2. Because the pilot can only put so many pounds of force on the stick, the faster he is going, the more the wind over the aileron resists that force and the less he can deflect it. With less deflection, the plane roll slower than it does at slower speeds! Note that this has absolutely nothing to do with "Aileron Reversal"! Also, that the P-38J/L was the only plane during the war with hydraulically boosted ailerons that completely eliminated this problem!




 
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45-Shooter    This was supposed to be a quote???   5/8/2013 9:22:00 PM

Total and absolute rubbish, do you think we are stupid?

No, I think you are very crafty! But until you post a link to actual reports of Bascomdown  Spitfire Mk-I-III tests that list the actual rates of both initial and sustained rates of roll, I WILL think you are ignorant.

 
I am crafty, I find little things called FACTS that dispell your posts, how underhand of me to provided facts
Then all you have to do is post them for all to see! A link to a Spitfire's chart showing speed up the side, or along the bottom and the rate of roll on the other axis! It will be a diagonal curve that drops precipitously as speed goes up! We are only interested in speeds over 300 MPH!
 
Balls, a MKIX would have a P38H/J The J, Block-25 had hydraulic power boosted ailerons! for breakfast Right! and would easy hold its own against a P38L, A MKXIV would easy overcome a P38L Just how is that going to happen? In a head on pass, the Spit dies at over 1,000 M. 
dream on
It's not a dream. The Spits guns are, at 1,000 Meters range wide of the aim point at least 34" either side of the target. In return, the flat shooting .50 Caliber is only 1-1/2 to 2 Fuselage heights low of the point of aim. A simple fraction of an inch pull back on the stick drags the bullet stream through the target. From just under 800 Meters, the entire bullet stream never goes above, or falls below the fuselage height of the typical single seat fighter of WW-II!
In the stern chase from cruise, the Spit takes more than twice as long to close the visual gap as the P-38 takes to do the same to the Spitfire Mk-XIV.
As the P38 is visiable at much greator range this is obvisouly a made up statement with no factual content
This is true, the P-38 is a much larger target and it is a huge handicap! However, the cruising speed of the Spitfire is so much lower than that of the P-38 and the acceleration is so much slower in total seconds to make up the difference in speed that it does take the Spit much longer to close than the much larger P-38. After all, how long does it take the Spit to accelerate up to the speed that the P-38 started at?
So if the chance to spot is proportional to the square of the difference in time, The P-38 shoots the Spit down 3/4 ths of the time and the Spit downs the P-38 1/4 of the time.
 
nope the spit closes on the P38 whilst the P38 pilots completes his 40 page check list for changing from cruise to combat While it does take much longer for a P-38 Pilot to go from "Economy Cruise" to "Maximum Continuous" power than the Spitfire, the Spitfire takes even longer to do the same maneuver than the FW-190 with it's single lever engine control! BUT, ALL of that aside, the P-38 has so much fuel on board that it can cruise at 360 Miles Per Hour, for about an hour longer than the Spitfire can cruise at 195-220 MPH! Or more importantly, it can cruise at 360 MPH for two hours when there was no combat Spitfire ever made during the War that could cruise at 300 MPH for more than 45 minutes, including using his reserves!
so the Spit is much less likely to survive. At longer ranges, the Spit sees the -38 coming and turns into the attack, but then it becomes a head on pass! Something the Spit is unlikely to survive!

supporting evidence required, as the P38 is a far bigger target and therefore far more likely to be hit
While it is absolutely true that the P-38 has about 3 times the Frontal area of the Spitfire, the Spit's guns are only pointed at the target when at 182.8-228.5 Meters! At ALL other ranges the guns are not even pointed at the target and are absolutely certain to miss!


 
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oldbutnotwise       5/9/2013 3:21:12 AM

! A link to a Spitfire's chart showing speed up the side, or along the bottom and the rate of roll on the other axis! It will be a diagonal curve that drops precipitously as speed goes up! We are only interested in speeds over 300 MPH!

Why? I ask again why? why should I prove a superious claim by you that has no foundation in fact? 

Balls, a MKIX would have a P38H/J The J, Block-25 had hydraulic power boosted ailerons!

so you admit that pre block 25 that they had inferior performance?

 for breakfast Right! and would easy hold its own against a P38L, A MKXIV would easy overcome a P38L Just how is that going to happen?

as it did in the real world

 In a head on pass, the Spit dies at over 1,000 M. 

dream on
It's not a dream. The Spits guns are, at 1,000 Meters range wide of the aim point at least 34" either side of the target.

but at 1000yrd the target is not (or is extreamly likely to be) directly in front of your plane.

 In return, the flat shooting .50 Caliber is only 1-1/2 to 2 Fuselage heights low of the point of aim. A simple fraction of an inch pull back on the stick drags the bullet stream through the target. problem there is that dragging your aim will move were the bullets will be not are, you seem to be stuck in a one diemension ide and are not alloing for actual world physics.

  However, the cruising speed of the Spitfire is so much lower than that of the P-38

Not according to the flight manuals of the two aircraft

 and the acceleration is so much slower in total seconds to make up the difference in speed that it does take the Spit much longer to close than the much larger P-38. After all, how long does it take the Spit to accelerate up to the speed that the P-38 started at?

and how much longer for the P38 to ajust all its controls to change from cruise to combat - significantly longer than a Spit

So if the chance to spot is proportional to the square of the difference in time, The P-38 shoots the Spit down 3/4 ths of the time and the Spit downs the P-38 1/4 of the time.
 
nope the spit closes on the P38 whilst the P38 pilots completes his 40 page check list for changing from cruise to combat While it does take much longer for a P-38 Pilot to go from "Economy Cruise" to "Maximum Continuous" power than the Spitfire, the Spitfire takes even longer to do the same maneuver than the FW-190 with it's single lever engine control! BUT, ALL of that aside, the P-38 has so much fuel on board that it can cruise at 360 Miles Per Hour,

no it cannot, in fact history says that high speed cruise by the P38 was to be avoided due to the fuel consumption and engine failures it creates


for about an hour longer than the Spitfire can cruise at 195-220 MPH! Or more importantly, it can cruise at 360 MPH for two hours when there was no combat Spitfire ever made during the War that could cruise at 300 MPH for more than 45 minutes, including using his reserves!

provides evidence for this statement


so the Spit is much less likely to survive. At longer ranges, the Spit sees the -38 coming and turns into the attack, but then it becomes a head on pass! Something the Spit is unlikely to survive!


supporting evidence required, as the P38 is a far bigger target and therefore far more likely to be hit
While it is absolutely true that the P-38 has about 3 times the Frontal area of the Spitfire, the Spit's guns are only pointed at the target when at 182.8-228.5 Meters! At ALL other ranges the guns are not even pointed at the target and are absolutely certain to miss!

only if the target is directly ahead and even in head on passes this was realy the case, you have to allow for aircraft movement of BOTH aircraft

ps what happens to the bullets after 228.8 meters? they just dissapear? from your comments they must,

 
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45-Shooter       5/13/2013 7:31:25 PM

Why? I ask again why?

To prove your claim that it was not the second slowest rate of roll aircraft in WW-II!
Right! and would easy hold its own against a P38L, A MKXIV would easy overcome a P38L Just how is that going to happen? as it did in the real world In your mind, or as tested in real aircraft? Right.
 

In a head on pass, the Spit dies at over 1,000 M.  dream on
It's not a dream. The Spits guns are, at 1,000 Meters range wide of the aim point at least 34' either side of the target.

but at 1000yrd the target is not (or is extreamly likely to be) directly in front of your plane.

Do you mean that because of the Spit's "Snaky" handling, the pilot could not point his plane accurately? Or that the RAF's pilots were so incompetent that they could not point the plane that well? I always thought that pointing the plane was on the pilot, not the plane, at least if it had CR Props!
 

 In return, the flat shooting .50 Caliber is only 1-1/2 to 2 Fuselage heights low of the point of aim. A simple fraction of an inch pull back on the stick drags the bullet stream through the target. problem there is that dragging your aim will move were the bullets will be not are, you seem to be stuck in a one diemension ide and are not alloing for actual world physics.

However, the cruising speed of the Spitfire is so much lower than that of the P-38

Not according to the flight manuals of the two aircraft
Well, yes according to the two flight manuals! To reach the range required of a 400 mile mission with reserves, the Spit-14 must fly at about 220 MPH and full Lean Mixture with a drop tank! To fly that same mission, the P-38 does not need a DT, lean mix and can cruise at 360 MPH! So yes, the P-38 is much faster than the Spitfire, any Spitfire.

and the acceleration is so much slower in total seconds to make up the difference in speed that it does take the Spit much longer to close than the much larger P-38. After all, how long does it take the Spit to accelerate up to the speed that the P-38 started at?

and how much longer for the P38 to ajust all its controls to change from cruise to combat - significantly longer than a Spit
Depends on the model of Spit. If it's one of the first few thousand, then it takes much longer for the Spit to go from economy cruise to combat cruise than the P-38! IE; Switch from LEAN to Rich mixture, adjust the VS Prop and then shove the throttle home. In the P-38 in the above example, he is at Max continuous cruise and does not have to touch a thing because he is already at 360 MPH!

So if the chance to spot is proportional to the square of the difference in time, The P-38 shoots the Spit down 3/4 ths of the time and the Spit downs the P-38 1/4 of the time.
 
nope the spit closes on the P38 whilst the P38 pilots completes his 40 page check list for changing from cruise to combat While it does take much longer for a P-38 Pilot to go from "Economy Cruise" to "Maximum Continuous" power than the Spitfire on a 2,300 mile mission, the Spitfire takes even longer to do the same maneuver! BUT, ALL of that aside, the P-38 has so much fuel on board that it can cruise at 360 Miles Per Hour for longer than the Spit-14 can cruise at 220 MPH! So in reality, the Spit must go from lean to rich mixture and shove the throttle forward, just to get to the speed the P-38 STARTS AT!




 
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45-Shooter    Reply part II.   5/13/2013 7:48:25 PM

[117]

General characteristics

Performance

supporting evidence required, as the P38 is a far bigger target and therefore far more likely to be hit Far more likely to be seen, but very much less likely to be hit. The Spit-14's wing mounted guns are at least 34' off of the point of aim at 1000 yards! (28' wide and 6' down!)
While it is absolutely true that the P-38 has about 3 times the Frontal area of the Spitfire, the Spit's guns are only pointed at the target when at 182.8-228.5 Meters! At ALL other ranges the guns are not even pointed at the target and are absolutely certain to miss! only if the target is directly ahead and even in head on passes this was realy the case, you have to allow for aircraft movement of BOTH aircraft 
Why would the Spit pilot not point the plane at his target? When both planes are pointed at each other, there is NO REALITIVE movement! They are on opposite ends of the same line!

ps what happens to the bullets after 228.8 meters? they just dissapear? from your comments they must,
Not at all. They start as far as ~7-11' out on the wing and then are pointed in and up so that at 200 yards all eight, six, or four guns converge on the point of aim! After they reach the point of aim, the bullet streams continue across it and up for another 200 yards or so, depending on caliber. At this point they are now about 7-11' from the point of aim in the horizontal plane and about 2' high. By 600 yards they are 14-22' wide and about 3' low. At 800 yards the bullet stream is now about 21-33' wide and lower than before. Buy the time when the bullet streams get to 1000 yards range, they are 28-44' wide of the mark depending on which of the eight/six, or four guns we are talking about! At 1000 yards range, all of the P-38's bullets from all of the guns are well centered just under the aiming point, about 2-3' low. Because of dispersion, some of the bullets will start to hit before the shooter pulls back on the stick to correct the tracer flow on to the target! This is called "Dragging the tracers across the target" and when the shooter does this, the full weight of fire destroys the fragile Spit, or any other single engine plane but the P-47 in less than a second.

 
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oldbutnotwise       5/14/2013 2:24:21 PM

 
but at 1000yrd the target is not (or is extreamly likely to be) directly in front of your plane.
Do you mean that because of the Spit's "Snaky" handling,
snakey?the only snake is you, the spit was a dream to fly everyone says so

 the pilot could not point his plane accurately?
if you had flow a plane you would realise that its not that easy

 Or that the RAF's pilots were so incompetent that they could not point the plane that well? I always thought that pointing the plane was on the pilot, not the plane, at least if it had CR Props!
you haven't a clue have you? you think everything is simple and that nothing is in any way complex it shows that your mind is incapable of understanding complex issues, if its not jack and Jill you get completely lost and for your joke about CR props it would seem that you are the only person in the world that things that CR props were such an advantage in the Air,
 
Not according to the flight manuals of the two aircraft
Well, yes according to the two flight manuals! To reach the range required of a 400 mile mission with reserves, the Spit-14 must fly at about 220 MPH and full Lean Mixture with a drop tank! To fly that same mission, the P-38 does not need a DT, lean mix and can cruise at 360 MPH! So yes, the P-38 is much faster than the Spitfire, any Spitfire.

but WHY would you use a short range fighter at such long range? the RAF never really saw the need for such long range, it was not usefull in escorting bomber command heavies, it not needed in escorting mediums and is not needed is supporting the army, its ONLY the USAAF that needed the range to escort its bombers once they reliased that unescorted day bombing was wrong, so why would a spit operating withing its design cruise at lower speed than a P38? i doubt many P38 missions of the same range as the Spits had the fuel load to cruise at 360mph and as the standard cruise speed of the P38 was lower than that of the Spit I call you wrong
 
and how much longer for the P38 to ajust all its controls to change from cruise to combat - significantly longer than a Spit
Depends on the model of Spit. If it's one of the first few thousand, then it takes much longer for the Spit to go from economy cruise to combat cruise than the P-38! IE; Switch from LEAN to Rich mixture, adjust the VS Prop and then shove the throttle home. In the P-38 in the above example, he is at Max continuous cruise and does not have to touch a thing because he is already at 360 MPH!

except that the P38 would an extra 2 years to GET OPERATIONAL, you compare a early MKI/II against an aircraft that was still a prototype and not suitable of combat ops, by the time the P40 entered service let alone the P38 all Spit had constant speed props and by the time the P38 got to Europe the Spits had auto mixture controls, and combined with the fact that the P38 never cruised at 360mph

 
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oldbutnotwise       5/14/2013 2:31:27 PM
Not at all. They start as far as ~7-11' out on the wing and then are pointed in and up so that at 200 yards all eight, six, or four guns converge on the point of aim! After they reach the point of aim, the bullet streams continue across it and up for another 200 yards or so, depending on caliber. At this point they are now about 7-11' from the point of aim in the horizontal plane and about 2' high. By 600 yards they are 14-22' wide and about 3' low. At 800 yards the bullet stream is now about 21-33' wide and lower than before. Buy the time when the bullet streams get to 1000 yards range, they are 28-44' wide of the mark depending on which of the eight/six, or four guns we are talking about! At 1000 yards range, all of the P-38's bullets from all of the guns are well centered just under the aiming point, about 2-3' low. Because of dispersion, some of the bullets will start to hit before the shooter pulls back on the stick to correct the tracer flow on to the target! This is called "Dragging the tracers across the target" and when the shooter does this, the full weight of fire destroys the fragile Spit, or any other single engine plane but the P-47 in less than a second.
 
yet this doesn't happen in real life, as there is more factors effecting the stream, go back to your youtube and watch the streams you will notice that they don't form nice easy patterns they move all over the place the longer the distance the more the dispersion, but no I get you cant understand this as your limited mind can only deal with simple ideas, that things are more complex than a line on a piece of paper seems to be beyond your comprehension
oh and 2x20mm and 2x.5 will make a real mess of a P38 too (assuming its not a 4x20mm equipped spit)
 
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oldbutnotwise       5/14/2013 3:41:14 PM

 
nope the spit closes on the P38 whilst the P38 pilots completes his 40 page check list for changing from cruise to combat While it does take much longer for a P-38 Pilot to go from "Economy Cruise" to "Maximum Continuous" power than the Spitfire on a 2,300 mile mission, the Spitfire takes even longer to do the same maneuver!
what total bull, the P38 was famous for its complexity,
 BUT, ALL of that aside, the P-38 has so much fuel on board that it can cruise at 360 Miles Per Hour for longer than the Spit-14 can cruise at 220 MPH! So in reality, the Spit must go from lean to rich mixture and shove the throttle forward, just to get to the speed the P-38 STARTS AT!

only if you fly P38 missions with full fuel on a short range mission something that NEVER happened
 
in short your post only works if you use the Spit for a role it wasn't designed for and wasn't intended for, why do you think that the Spit didn't get P51/P47/P38 style drop tanks until late 44? didn't anyone think of it? or was it that the RAF didn't actually need 1000 mile spits (oh wait a minute they did want them for recon work in 40 onwards and low and behold they got them, so why if they can get a spit with the range to reach berlin in 1940 did they not produce armed versions? could it be that they didn't see the need? not surprising as the USAAF didn't see the need for such long range fighters either
 
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marat,jean       5/24/2013 5:12:19 PM
Aeronautically nose wander is measured in degrees rate of turn as is the bullet dispersion that is caused. Dynamic conditions are not a bench-shooters' measurement. Aerial gunnery 101. 

When I pull the trigger it takes my first bullets about 1/3rd of a second to travel from my guns to his head. His plane will travel only about 45 meters in that time and I will have traveled around my much larger circle only 4.9 degrees, ALL the while tracking the target and closing about 52 meters, or about 7 meters less range than before. During this entire time, his cock-pit has never left the area covered by my gun-sight pipper!

Should for any reason, that stream of bullets, not impact his cock-pit, I can make instantaneous corrections to the relative position of my tracers and his head. And IF I am flying a plane with CR Props, those corrections will be free of P and Q effects that would push the fire hose like bullet stream off of the target's canopy!

So you see, your entire theorem is completely bogus!



 
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marat,jean       5/24/2013 5:13:22 PM
It is called 'angle rate.'
 
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