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Subject: Best All-Around Fighter of World War II
sentinel28a    10/13/2009 3:38:03 PM
Let's try a non-controversial topic, shall we? (Heh heh.) I'll submit the P-51 for consideration. BW and FS, if you come on here and say that the Rafale was the best fighter of WWII, I am going to fly over to France and personally beat you senseless with Obama's ego. (However, feel free to talk about the D.520.)
 
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Hamilcar       6/24/2010 12:00:07 PM



















 This is also why the Spit turned from a winner over England to a looser over France in late '44.















































The Hurricane was the workhorse that won the BoB...















Both plane types were required to win the battle. The Hurry was available in numbers, time and space at a cost that made it a strategic necessity during the BoB. But with out the Spit, the BoB is lost!



Is it?

German Strategic blundering and British Courage won the BoB.  The machines just helped out.  Had Hitler not ordered the switch of targets from the RAF and the air-defense network to population centers it was only a matter of time before the Brits were toast.  It was a foot race to be sure between who would run out of men and machine's first but the Germans were edging ahead until they gave the RAF a breather so they could go bomb houses.

 

Wicked has ot right, not he doesn?t go far enough.

 

You don?t win an aor campaign by shooting down fighters, which is what BF-109s and Spitfires did to each other, this canceling each other out

 

In military or physics terms, it was a 0/0/0 outcome, for effort, objective, and results successes. ZILCH total effect.  

 

 

As a defender you win when the attacker stops bombing, so logically you kill more bombers than the attacker can afford to lose to achieve his objective. Sonce the Hurricane is cheaper and faster to make, simpler to teach, a steadier gun platform than anything else you have and can kill everything German except a BF 109 (and the pl,ane I will show you) you build it like crazy and shelve for the moment anything that hinders that production except for enough Spitfires to handle Pretty Boy Willy?s overrated flying one trick pony deathtrap.

 

And you shoot down bombers. That is all you have to do.

 

As the attacker, you have to shut down the enemy air force. You do that by preventing from flying.

 

How do you do that?

1. Bomb Chain Home? The technology to bomb radio masts does not exist. Nope, that won?t work.

2. Attack the fighter director centers? You don?t know where they are. So how do you bomb them-especially when the British put them in girl?s schools, nunneries, next to hospitals, etc? 

3. Attack the telephone exchanges? See (2).

4. Attack the airfields. At least you know where those are? Well, can you reach all of them? No. That may not work, as he just lays back or moves. To another patch of grass.  

5. Attack the fighter factories. See (4).

6. Attack cities. This is the UK, that won?t work. They are as tough as you are.  

What will work?

1. Oil dimps and refineries. Did the Germans know where they are? Yes. Did they attack them? No. IDIOTS? Yes.^1 

2. Power plants Did the Germans know where they are? Yes. Did they attack them? No. IDIOTS? Yes. 

 

^1 Rational Germans: out of range of BF109 escort.  

 

Rebuttal. Have Pretty Boy Willy plumb the BF-109 for belly (and wing) drop tanks that doubles its range and loiter endurance. What? You mean that most overrated of incompetent aircraft designers can?t figure out how to wet-plumb his over-sold over-hyped , and when you really look at it, rather badly designed fight

 
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JFKY    Herald...   6/24/2010 12:28:36 PM
I think you miss the point of the Battle of Britain.  The mission of the Luftwaffe was to secure air supremecy over S-E England to allow the Army to land and do the rest.  The RN Home Fleet could be neutralized by the Luftwaffe, mines, and U-boats, save for its Light Forces.  The British Army had been defeated on the Continent, and had left it's best equipment in France, so if the Panzers could get established ashore, the War wold be over shortly.  And speaking of shortly it needed to be done between June and September, i.e., quickly.
 
1. Bomb Chain Home? The technology to bomb radio masts does not exist. Nope, that won?t work.
Agreed

2. Attack the fighter director centers? You don?t know where they are. So how do you bomb them-especially when the British put them in girl?s schools, nunneries, next to hospitals, etc? 

3. Attack the telephone exchanges? See (2).

I'm you're thinking with Modern Sensibilities.  The Luftwaffe doesn't CARE if their near hospitals or schools.  Did you miss the "Blitz" thing in Sept/Oct?
 

4. Attack the airfields. At least you know where those are? Well, can you reach all of them? No. That may not work, as he just lays back or moves. To another patch of grass.  

5. Attack the fighter factories. See (4).

6. Attack cities. This is the UK, that won?t work. They are as tough as you are.  

What will work?

1. Oil dimps and refineries. Did the Germans know where they are? Yes. Did they attack them? No. IDIOTS? Yes.^1 

2. Power plants Did the Germans know where they are? Yes. Did they attack them? No. IDIOTS? Yes. 

 
 
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JFKY    Herald...Let's try again!   6/24/2010 12:51:46 PM
Grrrrrrr1 I hate this comment tool!
 
 I think you miss the point of the Battle of Britain.  The mission of the Luftwaffe was to secure air supremacy over S-E England to allow the Army to land and do the rest.  The RN Home Fleet could be neutralized by the Luftwaffe, mines, and U-boats, save for its Light Forces.  The British Army had been defeated on the Continent, and had left it's best equipment in France, so if the Panzers could get established ashore, the War wold be over shortly.  And speaking of shortly it needed to be done between June and September, i.e., quickly.
 

How do you do that?

1. Bomb Chain Home? The technology to bomb radio masts does not exist. Nope, that won?t work.
Agreed

2. Attack the fighter director centers? You don?t know where they are. So how do you bomb them-especially when the British put them in girl?s schools, nunneries, next to hospitals, etc? 

3. Attack the telephone exchanges? See (2).
I think you are using a Modern Sensibility, here.  The Luftwaffe didn't care where they were, or did you miss the whole "Blitz" thing?  It's just that the Luftwaffe didn't know where to attack, had they known the locations and had a proper doctrine, they'd have attacked them, irrespective of collateral damage.
 
Your best point was that the Luftwaffe didn't know where they were, also lacked the ability to understand the British Defense System, and lacked an ability to locate the SOC's via TechInt.
 
4. Attack the airfields. At least you know where those are? Well, can you reach all of them? No. That may not work, as he just lays back or moves. To another patch of grass.  
That's EXACTLY what the Germans want, Herald,  for the RAF to move back from it's fields in S-E England!  It opens a hole in the aerial coverage of the UK and allows the Germans to occupy the beaches and landing fields.  IF, the Brit's are driven back from the forward air fields, to fields further North and West it allows the INVASION to happen...and once the Panzers are loose the British Army won't be able to stop them, destroying more air fields in the process, and opening up more of Britain to attack.  So yes, attacking the air fields and making the British give up aerial coverage is EXACTLY what the Luftwaffe wanted to achieve.
 
5. Attack the fighter factories. See (4).
Takes too long, though the Germans did try it, mostly to try to get the RAF to come up and fight.  This fight must be concluded by September 1940.
 
6. Attack cities. This is the UK, that won?t work. They are as tough as you are.  
Agreed, though the Germans didn't know this and the British ignored it, when they began Mass Night Attacks to "Dehouse" the Germans.

What will work?

1. Oil dimps and refineries. Did the Germans know where they are? Yes. Did they attack them? No. IDIOTS? Yes.^1 
Takes too long.....the Germans have only about 90 days to achieve their ends.  No time to attack strategic targets, that will, in time, lead to enemy curtailment of actions.  Plus the Luftwaffe probably isn't the best equipped for this, and many refineries are out of reach, any way.  So a German "Oil Plan" will take too long to have any discernible effect and that effect will be minimal.
 
2. Power plants Did the Germans know where they are? Yes. Did they attack them? No. IDIOTS? Yes.
Like Oil, takes too long, and many power centres cannot be reached.  Further the Luftwaffe's payloads and bombs were going to be hard pressed to achieve the effects you think they can.  Waste of time and resources.

Germany needs to concentrate on the Air Fields, and if they locate them and understand their importance, the SOC's....make the RAF confront two choices, come up to fight and be worn down by numbers OR stay on the ground and be bombed...with the alternative, give up coverage of the prospective landing beaches and Fallschirmjager Landing grounds and risk an invasion.  The RAF CAN'T give up any of the Engli
 
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45-Shooter       8/4/2010 8:39:13 PM










A late model P-47 with paddle blades could outclimb and outdive just about anything. Robert Johnson stated that once they got the paddle blades he had no trouble outclimbing Spitfires...







 







No, a Spitfire II from 1940 could outclimb any P47 ever built, including all the so-called 'lightweight' models, with ease.  Johnson's story was simply made up, and he comes across as a complete blowhard.







 







Cromwell 





















The pilot who went up against the  best the Luftwaffe had to offer isn't the one who sounds like a blowhard.  Post some climb rate stats.







 


 

H.


 

 

 

 

 

When the claim that a Spit Mk-II could out climb any Jug ever made, why did you post the specs from the Spit Mk-XIV? I personally find this strange. The Mk-XIV was a very troubled plane. They had to modify it several times to correct almost fatal flaws. IIRC, there was more than one year between it's fielding and it's first kill, while they worked the bugs out. It required a larger Vertical fin and rudder to stop snaking induced by the five bladed prop, it was a terrible gun platform and it had bad manners that would kill it's pilot in a heart beat. The Spit-II was a saint by those standards, but not even close to any Jug in total performance. In addition, they only made just over one-thousand Mk-XIVs Vs ~12,602 model D, or 1,816 model N Jugs? What about the M & N model Jugs performance Vs the Spit-XIV?

Furthermore, I look at the Spit-XIV performance graphs you posted and see very much lower rate of climb at high altitudes where the Jug's Turbo-Charger made a huge difference.

Finally, How many German planes were shot down by Mk-XIV Spits? How many people became Aces in the Mk-XIV? Especially considering the time frame when German targets were plentiful and the pilot quality was on the way down?


 
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Aussiegunneragain       5/11/2011 11:36:13 PM
I've just bought a copy of "Combat Legend Focke-Wulf Fw 190" by Peter Caygill and was so impressed that I thought I'd rejuvenate this thread to nominate the type as the best all rounder. Why?
 
1: It was the only type to achive air dominance in a theatre of war (Northwest Europ - late 1941 to mid 1942) where the current fighters (Fw-190 and Spitfire MkV) were at the leading edge. It had a 4 to 1 kill ratio over the Spit.
 
2. It was eventually matched but never overmatched on performance by any other piston engined type.
 
3. It was rugged and easy to build.
 
4. It was as versitile as any type.
 
Thoughts?
 
 
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Aussiegunneragain       5/11/2011 11:36:16 PM
I've just bought a copy of "Combat Legend Focke-Wulf Fw 190" by Peter Caygill and was so impressed that I thought I'd rejuvenate this thread to nominate the type as the best all rounder. Why?
 
1: It was the only type to achive air dominance in a theatre of war (Northwest Europ - late 1941 to mid 1942) where the current fighters (Fw-190 and Spitfire MkV) were at the leading edge. It had a 4 to 1 kill ratio over the Spit.
 
2. It was eventually matched but never overmatched on performance by any other piston engined type.
 
3. It was rugged and easy to build.
 
4. It was as versitile as any type.
 
Thoughts?
 
 
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Aussiegunneragain    Clarification   5/11/2011 11:56:23 PM
1: It was the only type to achive air dominance in a theatre of war (Northwest Europ - late 1941 to mid 1942) where the current fighters (Fw-190 Bf-109 and Spitfire Mk V) were at the leading edge, and where levels of pilot training and overall resourcing of opposing air forces were roughly on par. It had a 4 to 1 kill ratio over the Spit Mk V.
 
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burjegol    This debate still alive?   5/12/2011 2:15:29 AM
Ha-ha-ha folks.
Simply amazing! At the end of WW 2, 4FG pilots swore that the p-51 mustang as the queen of the skies. the 56FG swore that it is the p-47 thunderbolt. 65 years ago folks, and still the question is not yet settled.
Can we say, errr call it a draw????
 
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burjegol    This debate still alive?   5/12/2011 2:18:04 AM
And by the way folks, it may seem strange to hear but many more US pilots became ace flying the p-47s than any other US warplanes
 
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Aussiegunneragain       5/12/2011 4:40:01 AM
 
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