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Subject: Best All-Around Fighter of World War II
sentinel28a    10/13/2009 3:38:03 PM
Let's try a non-controversial topic, shall we? (Heh heh.) I'll submit the P-51 for consideration. BW and FS, if you come on here and say that the Rafale was the best fighter of WWII, I am going to fly over to France and personally beat you senseless with Obama's ego. (However, feel free to talk about the D.520.)
 
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gf0012-aust    RAAF Sabres   5/24/2011 4:30:13 AM
there's a reason why Avon Sabres were fitted with 30mm canon..... :)
 
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RedParadize       5/24/2011 4:36:28 AM
Thanks Aussiegunneragain, It was quite interesting. It raise some question about Mig-15 real capacity against anything else but a bomber.
 
I have my idea how "Mr I shoot a 45" will react to that. Trough he will probably surprise me with some weird line by line comment and out of subject comparison.


Credibility point for Aussiegunneragain: +1
Credibility point for 45-shooter:             -0 (yep you cant be lower than 0)
GF don't need any credibility point
 
Just kidding!

 
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Aussiegunneragain    Ispose   5/24/2011 4:38:23 AM
You are incorrect to say that the Fw-190 was against all types it flew against after 1941-42. First, the comparison depends on the model you are talking about. The A models had a hard time at altitude but the D-9 was a match for anything above 20,000 feet and the Ta-152 could hand any other piston engined fighter to see combat during the war it's arse on a platter.
Second, even the A models were very capable against contemporous opponents at least until late 1943. I have the book you see in this link on my bookshelf ...

>>
 
... and it describes comparative tests done of a captured Fw-190A-6 against a P-47D by the USAAC in late1943 in Italy.
 
The Fw-190 was found to have better acceleration and would transition quickly into the climb and the dive. It could also hang on it's prop and outturn the P-47 at speeds of below 250mph.
 
The P-47 would overtake the Fw-190A in the dive after about 7000 feet, could outturn it at high altitude and could outclimb it by 500fpm after the first 1500feet of the climb. I found the last point somewhat surprising as I have read elsewhere that the P-47 was poor in the climb until it was fitted with the paddle bladed prop in early 1944.
 
What this means is that below 20,000 feet when the fight started the Fw-190A had an advantage due to it's better responsiveness in the vertical and in acceleration. I have also read that it was a particularily quick aircraft to get into the roll because of the design of the ailerion control system. This is significant as one would expect that if the P-47 was bounced by the 190, it would have a hard time getting away and if the Fw-190 was bounced, it could buy time for the pilot or his comrades do something to counter the P-47. However, if the fight persisted the P-47 was at an advantage unless the Fw-190 managed to survive long enough for the fight to become low and slow, at which point it could use it's superior manouverability.
 
For the missions performed the two were fairly evenly matched, each with strengths and weaknesses. Remember that until the advent of the P-51B there wasn't an allied fighter that could provide a credible long-range bomber escort into Germany, so the two types would have met at lower altitudes on a more regular basis. I would really only say that the Fw-190 was outclassed for many of the missions it performed for the period between October 1943 with the advent of the P-51B and autumn 1944 with the introduction of the Fw-190D-9, which was as good as any of the Allied types. With the introduction of the Ta-152 in early 1945 the 190 family again took the lead, though it was too late in the War to make a difference. .
 
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Aussiegunneragain       5/24/2011 4:43:26 AM

As to the ball turret and it's gunner who survived missing a toe to frost bite, the shell hit the face of his armored glass just an inch or two from his gun sight near the middle, OR by the right edge. It's hard to tell. But none of that is important, what IS important is that the shell failed to perforate the glass and injure the gunner enough to make him a casualty. If you had gone to the site linked to in the prior post, you would have known that and seen dozens of pics, all showing much the same lack of serious effect!
He would have been incapacitated for the remainder of the flight though which is the effect that needed to be achieved and virtually guaranteed from such a 20mm hit. A 12.7mm AP round might just as easily have penetrated the glass, missed him and left him to fire back at the attacking fighter ... which illustrates the point that people here are making.
 
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Aussiegunneragain       5/24/2011 4:49:15 AM


In artillery, caliber or calibre[nb 1] is the diameter of a barrel, or by extension a relative measure of the length. link />

Note that the word caliber is DIMENSIONLESS by itself and requires a type of unit to be appended to the number to mean anything! Does 14 caliber mean a 14"( the " symbol denoting the units in this case!) or .14" a micro-caliber varmint round? The fraise 14 by itself is meaningless with out further context!


Shooter, in the context of an airman talking about a 30 cal round, along with a 20 mm round, he was clearly using the common colloquialsim for .30 inch rifle caliber ammunition. He clearly knew what a mm is because he used it in the same sentance. If he had meant 30mm he would have said it.
I actually think you are fairly well read on these topics, but when you come up with utter, utter rubbish like that to try and defend an undefendable patriotic position you just make a fool of yourself and stop people from taking any notice of what you say. It's a dumb thing to do.  
 
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RedParadize       5/24/2011 5:26:14 AM


I actually think you are fairly well read on these topics, but when you come up with utter, utter rubbish like that to try and defend an undefendable patriotic position you just make a fool of yourself and stop people from taking any notice of what you say. It's a dumb thing to do. 

I noticed that too. I would not nececerly say that "patriotic position" is  much to blame here. It is something i can live with. What is really annoying is the non-debating way of writing:
 
You tend to comment sentence by sentence while missing the point and meaning of the whole paragraph.
You bring out of subject comparison that doesn't really add anything to the debate.
You contradict your own argument and often on the same sentence.
You offen correct us on something we didn't said.
 
Thats a hard start when you joint a forum. Keep in mind that some around here (not me) are known and verified professional. They know, you don't. You might bring some intresting concept/idea but they are the one to prove these thing to be true or false.

 
 
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Ispose    Re: Aussie Gunner   5/24/2011 10:42:53 AM
I agree with you that below 20,000 ft the FW-190A models were very capable aircraft. If you were in a P-47 you wanted to keep your speed up and not get sucked into a low level low speed dogfight where they could chew you up. The problem with the A Models were that at high altitude the P-47's and 51's were much better performing. The FW-190D's and TA-152's were designed to be very capable at high altitude and were every bit as as good or even better than the 47's and 51's...but too few and too late. The bulk of the Luftwaffe had to face the 8th AF in 190A's and 109G's which were just not as good. They just didn't have the performance to dictate the terms of the fight.
I really like the P-38 but it just didn't do as well in Europe as in the PTO. Poor Cockpit heating and German planes that were close to it's performance meant that it had a harder time playing to its strengths. Much easier vs Zeros, Oscars, and Tonys where it had a much better speed, climb, and dive advantage. The P-38 did well in Africa and the Med but you didn't have to worry about your cockpit glass frosting over blocking vision because the heater was inadequate...that had to increase your pucker factor.
 
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Aussiegunneragain       5/24/2011 11:39:47 AM

I agree with you that below 20,000 ft the FW-190A models were very capable aircraft. If you were in a P-47 you wanted to keep your speed up and not get sucked into a low level low speed dogfight where they could chew you up. The problem with the A Models were that at high altitude the P-47's and 51's were much better performing. The FW-190D's and TA-152's were designed to be very capable at high altitude and were every bit as as good or even better than the 47's and 51's...but too few and too late. The bulk of the Luftwaffe had to face the 8th AF in 190A's and 109G's which were just not as good. They just didn't have the performance to dictate the terms of the fight.

I really like the P-38 but it just didn't do as well in Europe as in the PTO. Poor Cockpit heating and German planes that were close to it's performance meant that it had a harder time playing to its strengths. Much easier vs Zeros, Oscars, and Tonys where it had a much better speed, climb, and dive advantage. The P-38 did well in Africa and the Med but you didn't have to worry about your cockpit glass frosting over blocking vision because the heater was inadequate...that had to increase your pucker factor.


It seems we are furiously agreeing on the strengths and weaknesses of the Fw-190 then :-).
As for which was the best, there is a fair degree of subjectivity in the choice. I choose the Fw-190 because it had a fairly long period of solid dominance in the most challenging and previously evenly matched theatre during 1941-42, and then stayed amongst the best performers (give or take depending on timing) for the rest of the War.  Others may choose other criteria, but that is the fairest way that I can think to look at it.
 
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JFKY    Aussiegunner   5/24/2011 1:21:00 PM
I just can't agree, it may be a DEFINITIONAL thing..."best all around" means something different to you than to me...
You keep focusing on the A2A and seemingly the FIGHTER A2A aspect...
1) A2G:
            P-47 over FW-190.  More ordnance capacity.  The FW-190 may never had the chance, but i don't believe it would have equaled the P-47.
 
2) Bomber Escort:
            P-47 over the FW-190, it had the range the FW-190 didn't.  Again mayhap not a requirement for the Luftwaffe, but it's a role he P-47 could fill that the FW-190 could NOT.
 
3) Bomber Destroyer- 
              FW-190 was NOT that good a bomber buster, and in order to become one, it had to sacrifice A2A performance.  In terms of bomber attack a Ju-88 or Me-110 would have been just as good, if not better.
 
4) A2A
            FW-190 is, apparently, the equal of the P-47, but I imagine that the kill ratios are very lopsided in the P-47's favour.  It's not the 'planes's fault, per se, fuel limits on training, pilot losses and the like eroded the HUMAN capacity, not the TECHNICAL capacity of the Luftwaffe.
 
I assume your's is, therefore, a definitional argument, of best all around FIGHTER (A2A), where as mine is Best ALL-AROUND fighter, meaning that the P-47 fulfilled many roles.  To operationalize it, Best All Around to me, means,  IF you could only have one airplane to equip your force, what would it be?  And for me, it is the P-47, capable of many things.  YOU, OTOH, seem to focus on how well the FW-190 or P-47 perform against each other.  It's a valid argument, but as I say we seem to focus on different portions of the phrase.
 
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Heorot       5/24/2011 2:11:41 PM
1) This is a discussion about fighters, NOT fighter-bombers. We should really discount the A2G performance because that is a fighter-bomber role not a pure fighter role.
2) Why couldn?t the FW-190 be a bomber escort. Its only a range issue and long range was not likely to be a needed role given that the Germans never had a long range bomber.
3) I don?t understand this point. We have been discussing different variant of other fighters, how is the FW-190 different from, say the P-51A to P51-D?
4) Some numbers to support your opinion here would be useful.
 
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