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Subject: Best All-Around Fighter of World War II
sentinel28a    10/13/2009 3:38:03 PM
Let's try a non-controversial topic, shall we? (Heh heh.) I'll submit the P-51 for consideration. BW and FS, if you come on here and say that the Rafale was the best fighter of WWII, I am going to fly over to France and personally beat you senseless with Obama's ego. (However, feel free to talk about the D.520.)
 
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earlm       5/26/2011 9:53:42 AM
There were no ground attack aircraft armored against 30mm.  The Il-2 was heavily armored and still suffered casualties.  Speed is a good defense against ground fire as long as the plane is tough.  Speed is also the best defense against enemy planes.  The specialized types in the east were probably not as good as the FW-190F.  Note that the Stuka was replaced by the 190F.  The Hs-129 was considered too slow to survive int he face of enemy air despite all its armor.  I think the specialized planes in the east were a response to the need to carry antitank weapons.  Once rockets were available a 190 or 47 could do the job.  Note also that specialized ground attackers were much less common than fighter bombers after the war.
 
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JFKY    p-47 & Corsair   5/26/2011 12:07:29 PM
Again it may be DEFINITONAL, but my focus is ALL-AROUND, not FIGHTER...and the purpose of an airplane, fighter or otherwise, is to win the war , via the air...to the extent that the Luftwaffe was no threat in 1944/45 the role of a fighter WAS Ground Attack. Please note the Light Bomber went missing by the end of the war, it's place taken by the FIGHTER-Bomber...and now the Medium Bomber is going away, replaced by the FIGHTER-Bomber.  I'll quote another pilot, "Fighter Pilots make Headlines, Bomber Pilots make History"  Aerial Combat is a byproduct of the REAL "air war" the destruction of the enemy's ground infrastructure and the provision of intelligence.  Fighters exist, ONLY, to facilitate or obstruct those missions.  Fighters do many things, one of which is down enemy aircraft.
 
And NO, you don't need a 3cm cannon to destroy armour....the 12.7 BMG has the capacity to penetrate the rear deck armour of the Panther and the Tiger, IIRC.  Meaning that the P-47 or ANY fighter with at least a 12.7mm HMG was a threat to tanks.  As evidence I point out the slaughter in the Falaise Gap and elsewhere, caused by Western Aircraft, none of whom, carried a 3cm weapon...and beyond the direct attack, the soft transport element of an armoured unit is also EXTREMELY vulnerable to aerial attack.  I don't care if you're in a "Maus", rest assured once the Opel "Blitz" transporting your fuel is gone, you won't be an armoured threat.
 
Finally, the K-100 may or may not be the equal of the F4U, but did it do as much, could it be land AND Sea-based?  Could it strike F4/6's, B-17/24/25/26/29's, could it attack pill boxes, and heavy warships? Lastly, was it produced in the thousands?
 
I was wrong, I'd say the best ALL-AROUND fighter, in the Pacific, would be the F6 Hellcat.  The Corsair, was not available for CVA's until 1944, and it was NOT a good night fighter or photo-reconnaissance "bird"....the Hellcat did everything the F4U did, plus the supplemental roles of reconnaissance and night combat.  So whilst the F4U might or might not be the TECHNICAL equivalent or superior to the F6F, in many roles, that fact is the Hellcat did more things than the Corsair.  And its performance and battle record are better than its Japanese counter-parts....who cares if a Tony could out-turn an F6F, overall the USN slaughtered its Japanese opponents, post-1943, no matter how TECHNICALLY or THEORETICALLY proficient their a/c might have been.
 
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earlm    Ki-100 Overrated   5/26/2011 7:48:26 PM
Like may of the Japanese planes the Ki-100 was overrated.  It was the 3rd best Japanese plane after the Ki-84 and N1K2.  It was slower than the Hellcat and not strongly built.
 
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45-Shooter    Dam, I forgot your name again!   5/27/2011 1:38:18 PM

This is why ground attack capability is a secondary consideration when judging the best fighter. A fighter's job is to shoot down enemy aircraft. I believe there is a quote out there to that effect from a famous ace, I just can't think of whom right now.

MVR Said Paraphrasing; "The fighter pilot's job is to see the enemy and shoot him down. Anything else is rubbish!"
If you read his book, he is very specific about what he thinks is required of a fighter plane and pilot and exactly how to do the best job at it. Very few members of this board would qualify under his rules! Under his rules, the ideal match up would be the F-104 Starfighter Vs the Avro Gunbus, IF he was in the Starfighter! EBH, aka The Blond Knight of Germany thought exactly the same thing! Funny thing, but all of the top Aces agreed! I wonder why that was? Now there's a topic for a new thread; Why was that and what type of plane would best fill their criteria starting in 1936? Any takers?
 
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JFKY    45-Shooter   5/27/2011 3:15:29 PM
Who won the Second World War?  The Blonde Knight or someone else?  And IF, and that's a big IF, you think the F-104 is the Epitome of "fighter" you have a big another "Think" coming...it was fairly poor aircraft, good for only one thing, fast, high altitude interception at visual ranges.  Again, please note which a/c F-4 or F-104 served longest, did more, and oddly enough, downed more enemy a/c, F-4 or F-104?  Fighter or Fighter-BOMBER?  I believe the answer is clear, the multi-role F-4 dominated its era....in the West, at least.
 
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JFKY    Oh BTW 45-Shooter   5/27/2011 4:30:46 PM
Hartmann OPPOSED the Luftwaffe procuring the F-104, so much so it ended his career...just thought you should know.
 
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45-Shooter    Did you read any of it?   5/27/2011 8:30:24 PM

Who won the Second World War?  The Blonde Knight or someone else?  And IF, and that's a big IF, you think the F-104 is the Epitome of "fighter" you have a big another "Think" coming...it was fairly poor aircraft, good for only one thing, fast, high altitude interception at visual ranges.  Again, please note which a/c F-4 or F-104 served longest, did more, and oddly enough, downed more enemy a/c, F-4 or F-104?  Fighter or Fighter-BOMBER?  I believe the answer is clear, the multi-role F-4 dominated its era....in the West, at least.


It was not my idea, but I wish it was! It was EBH's and the context was that the fastest most hevily armed cold war fighter was the best possible match against the WW-I Avro Gunbus! Also, EBH flew the F-104 and must have had some ideas about what it could do Vs the Gunbus. Don't you think? Norman Lockard also liked the F-104.
but more than all that were his ideas of how to fight a war in the air;
Look first, take in the entire situation. Analyse the situation and geomitry! Then, if and only if it looks like you can go down and kill him with out the chance of him or his friends shooting back, do it! Then use the speed of your dive to zoom up and re-analyse the situation and choose what to do next. Escape, maneuver to a better possition or attack again as required to stay alive and kill the other guy!
 
I'd recomend that you read his book, "The Blond Knight of Germany" and several of the orther works on EBH.
 
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45-Shooter    Did you read any of it?   5/27/2011 8:35:51 PM

Hartmann OPPOSED the Luftwaffe procuring the F-104, so much so it ended his career...just thought you should know.

You are right about most of that, it ALMOST ended his career, but it does not change the basic idea of the quote! ZOOM and BOOM is better than turn and burn!
 
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JFKY    H'mmmmmmmm   5/27/2011 8:50:10 PM
Blond Knight and the F-104...again please point out the number of air to air kills of the F-104?  SURELY, the USAF and Tzahal used extensively???  And let's talk about the ordnance delivered by the F-104, after all both the US and Tzahal had the opportunity to use the a/c....oh that's right they didn't, because the F-4 was the better all around platform!  Just like the P-47 was the better all around platform, to stay On Thread....
 
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45-Shooter    JFKY   5/27/2011 9:41:31 PM
It was the idea that the best way to fight a war is to ambush the other guy from behind and below, kill him and fly away before they can do anything about it. Only attack those who in possitions that make them vulnerable, etc. How does that sound to you?
 
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