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Subject: Best All-Around Fighter of World War II
sentinel28a    10/13/2009 3:38:03 PM
Let's try a non-controversial topic, shall we? (Heh heh.) I'll submit the P-51 for consideration. BW and FS, if you come on here and say that the Rafale was the best fighter of WWII, I am going to fly over to France and personally beat you senseless with Obama's ego. (However, feel free to talk about the D.520.)
 
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45-Shooter       1/3/2013 9:21:44 PM

Shooter isn't Herald/Hamilcar, he has been here for about 10 years. Unfortunately there is more than one goose coming up with this sort of rubbish on this board.
What rubbish? Don't you think a ~50 tonne prop plane can lift 20 tons and fly it 1,400 miles from a dirt road?

 
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45-Shooter       1/3/2013 10:01:53 PM

The point about the USAAF using Spitfire is highly relevant because for air superiority in Northern Europe and the Med they used it in preference to all the US types until 1943. They had plenty of P-38s, P-39s and P-40s and plenty of capacity to produce more, but none of them were good enough for air to air missions against the most current Fw-190s and Bf-109s. Even in 1943 some units in the Med didn't want to change over to Thunderbolts and Mustangs because they considered the Spitfire to be a better air to air type, it is only the range of the latter two types that gave them a definitive reason for the change. It is your point about the difficulties in handling the Spitfire that is irrelevant. High performance aircraft ARE often difficult to handle, but any pilot who couldn't taxi a Spitfire safely was probably going to become a hamburger in a dogfight with a decently flown Bf-109 or Fw-190 anyway.
From Wiki; During the Second World War, Spitfires were used by the USAAF in the 4th Fighter Squadron until replaced by P-47 Thunderbolts in March 1943.
Also from Wiki;
History

The 4th was activated at Selfridge Field , Michigan on 15 January 1941 and trained under Third Air Force as a tactical fighter squadron. Moved to several U.S. bases before relocating to Northern Ireland and England in 1942. Equipped with the British Supermarine Spitfire , was assigned to Twelfth Air Force during the North African Campaign in late 1942. Moved across Algeria and Tunisia flying ground support missions for American ground forces; taking part in the invasion of Sicily and Italy in 1943. Participated in the liberation of Corsica in 1943; then returning to Italy and being re-equipped with P-51D Mustangs in May 1944. Participated in Northern Italian Campaign, returning to the United States in August 1945 and inactivating. [1]

Can you please send a link to the USAAF's Spitfire exploits that you mention above as these are the only two I could find in the short five minute search. Plese include the numbers of EAC shot down in this time with the Spitfire AC in USAAF Servive! Can you please send links to the quotes of the statements above also?
In the book "Spitfire, the history" previously mentioned, I was able to find the quote that when equipped with the various changes required for desert use, there was little differance in preformance when compaired to the P-40? Pages 163-172, "Official reports on the Mk-V", also pages 181, 186, with pictures of the tropical variants and the performance figures from same. ( IE. 339 MPH TOP SPEED!)
I looked for American Spitfire Aces in N. Africa in Mike Spik's books but was again stymied. So some sort of refferance to your claims above would be nice?

 
 
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45-Shooter       1/3/2013 10:03:02 PM

The point about the USAAF using Spitfire is highly relevant because for air superiority in Northern Europe and the Med they used it in preference to all the US types until 1943. They had plenty of P-38s, P-39s and P-40s and plenty of capacity to produce more, but none of them were good enough for air to air missions against the most current Fw-190s and Bf-109s. Even in 1943 some units in the Med didn't want to change over to Thunderbolts and Mustangs because they considered the Spitfire to be a better air to air type, it is only the range of the latter two types that gave them a definitive reason for the change. It is your point about the difficulties in handling the Spitfire that is irrelevant. High performance aircraft ARE often difficult to handle, but any pilot who couldn't taxi a Spitfire safely was probably going to become a hamburger in a dogfight with a decently flown Bf-109 or Fw-190 anyway.
From Wiki; During the Second World War, Spitfires were used by the USAAF in the 4th Fighter Squadron until replaced by P-47 Thunderbolts in March 1943.
Also from Wiki;
History

The 4th was activated at Selfridge Field , Michigan on 15 January 1941 and trained under Third Air Force as a tactical fighter squadron. Moved to several U.S. bases before relocating to Northern Ireland and England in 1942. Equipped with the British Supermarine Spitfire , was assigned to Twelfth Air Force during the North African Campaign in late 1942. Moved across Algeria and Tunisia flying ground support missions for American ground forces; taking part in the invasion of Sicily and Italy in 1943. Participated in the liberation of Corsica in 1943; then returning to Italy and being re-equipped with P-51D Mustangs in May 1944. Participated in Northern Italian Campaign, returning to the United States in August 1945 and inactivating. [1]

Can you please send a link to the USAAF's Spitfire exploits that you mention above as these are the only two I could find in the short five minute search. Plese include the numbers of EAC shot down in this time with the Spitfire AC in USAAF Servive! Can you please send links to the quotes of the statements above also?
In the book "Spitfire, the history" previously mentioned, I was able to find the quote that when equipped with the various changes required for desert use, there was little differance in preformance when compaired to the P-40? Pages 163-172, "Official reports on the Mk-V", also pages 181, 186, with pictures of the tropical variants and the performance figures from same. ( IE. 339 MPH TOP SPEED!)
I looked for American Spitfire Aces in N. Africa in Mike Spik's books but was again stymied. So some sort of refferance to your claims above would be nice?

 
 
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Aussiegunneragain       1/4/2013 3:57:26 AM

“Can you please send a link to the USAAF's Spitfire exploits that you mention above as these are the only two I could find in the short five minute search. Plese include the numbers of EAC shot down in this time with the Spitfire AC in USAAF Servive! Can you please send links to the quotes of the statements above also?


In the book "Spitfire, the history" previously mentioned, I was able to find the quote that when equipped with the various changes required for desert use, there was little differance in preformance when compaired to the P-40? Pages 163-172, "Official reports on the Mk-V", also pages 181, 186, with pictures of the tropical variants and the performance figures from same. ( IE. 339 MPH TOP SPEED!)

 

I looked for American Spitfire Aces in N. Africa in Mike Spik's books but was again stymied. So some sort of refferance to your claims above would be nice?”

 

Here are the links showing that the 31 st and 52nd fighter groups arrived in Europe without aircraft as the P-39 and P-40 were both judged to be incapable of operating in that environment. They were equipped with Spitfire Mk-Vs and then operated in Northern Europe from early to mid 1942 escorting bombers. Then they were deployed on Operation Torch, where they constituted over 25% (by number of groups) of the USAAF fighter force for that operation. They continued to fight with the Spitfire until the end of 1943, when the Spits (by then Mk-VIIIs and IXs were replaced by P-51s. One of the links has that the 31st shot down nearly 200 enemy aircraft using the Spit out of 500 in total. It also has a list of aces, though many those would have most achieved victories in both the Spit and the Mustang.

 

The links also show that the 4 th Fighter Group that you mention was an ex RAF Eagle unit which transferred into the USAAF in mid-1942, taking its Spitfire Mk Vs with it. It transitioned to Thunderbolts in April 1943.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/3...

http://www.wwiiaircraftperform...

http://raf-112-squadron.org/31...

http://www.usaaf.com/8thaf/fig...


http://www.armyaircorpsmuseum....
http://www.8thafhs.org/fighter...
http://www.usaaf.com/8thaf/fig...

http://raf-112-squadron.org/52...

http://www.asisbiz.com/il2/Spi...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/O...

 
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Aussiegunneragain       1/4/2013 4:33:53 AM
Here another couple of links which detail Spitfire use in Northern Europe by the 8th Airforce.
 
http://www.8thafhs.org/combat1942.htm
http://www.8thafhs.org/combat1943.htm" target="_blank">link
 
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Aussiegunneragain       1/4/2013 4:41:40 AM
Links about the 8th Airforce's use of Spitfires in Europe and about DAF sub commands using Spitfires in North Africa. 
 
> />en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northwest_African_Coastal_Air_Force
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northwest_African_Tactical_Air_Force
 
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LB       1/4/2013 6:20:11 AM
Colonel Zemke commanded P-38, P-51, and P-47 groups and thought of the 3 the P-51D superior air to air below 25,000 ft but preferred the P-47 for not only it's ruggedness but it's 8 vs 6 guns and it's better performance at high altitude.  I'd also suggest that had their been no P-51 that the P-47D would have filled the long range escort role.  The P-47D-15 had 375 gal internal and in Feb 1944 got a 150 gal belly tank that by May was being used on the wings as well.  Without the P-51 I suggest greater emphasis on increasing P-47 range earlier.
 
All this aside is the question best escort fighter, best air to air, or does overall include air to ground and if so what percentage?   The question can be viewed by everyone however they like and thus many aircraft are "best" depending on what metrics are used.
 
If "all around" includes carrier capable then I'd suggest non carrier aircraft don't count.  If it doesn't then does being carrier capable add any extra consideration and if so how much?  In other words I'd suggest the question was never defined.  Depending upon the actual question I believe one could easily make a case for either the P-51, P-47, or F-4U unless we start getting into length of service and how that is considered.
 
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Aussiegunneragain    LB   1/4/2013 7:28:29 AM
I agree that the question is a difficult one because it is ill defined, but I think it was more of a conversation starter than anything else. What I think of when I think of "best all round fighter" is the one that was able to make the greatest contribution because:

1. it could competitively carry out the greatest number of fighter roles:
2. was provided on a cost effective basis:
3. was capable of making the greatest impact because of availability over a long period of time.

To me individual technical characteristics are of a secondary concern. They may keep individual pilots happy but the most important test is, which was capable of doing the most to win the War?

We can get into alternative histories about long range P-47s if you like but then I could also argue that the P-51 was successfully tested as a carrier aircraft, which would make it equal to the Corsair under your criteria. I don't really see the point in that because none of that happened. What is a fact is that despite it's carrier capability, the Corsair couldn't do what the Mustang or the Thunderbolt did in the long-range, high altitude escort role, so to my mind the two roles cancel each other out.

One other point that I think should be considered is that the later American types only really fought at a time when the Axis had been at War for four years, at which time their problems with pilot training, fuel availability and aircraft numbers had well and truly commenced, and only got worse. This highlights to me that the Thunderbolt was a bit of a one trick wonder in air to air combat, with it's pilots relying on being able to howl down from high altitude, blow the crap out of any haplesss German fighter that got in the way and if they found themselves in front of a German fighter, take a few hits and dive away.

What would have happened in a scenario where there were consistently equal or better numbers of German fighters with equally well-trained pilots, as the British faced over the channel until 1942? I reckon you would find that the Thunderbolt would have come up lacking, because you can only dive so far as Mother Earth or the Sea and then you have to be able to rely on outrunning or out-turning the fighter behind you, which has height advantage. In the Thunderbolt's case this was a big disadvantage, because it was a slug at lower altitudes. More numerous German aircraft with more competent pilots would have worked this out that the T-Bolt could be stalked to lower altitudes and then run down and destroyed.

The same can't be said for the Mustang as it had more tricks up its speed at altitude, was damn fast at lower altitudes and had better rolling/turning performance than the P-47 at lower speeds. As for Spitfire, with that rate of climb there was no need for it to ever to end up on the defensive at lower altitudes and if it did it could slow right down while maintaining altitude and out turn anything.

I reckon in a more challenging environment both those types would be more survivable than the P-47.
 
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JFKY    45-Shooter   1/4/2013 10:44:46 AM
You're just engaging in SEMANTICS, now.  If you want, Jet v. piston, but I think you grasped the point about ICE v. Jet.  I might point out, that the C-130 is JET powered, IIRC.  It is a turbo-prop, not a piston-engine....
 
And yes, turbines offer great advantages, the AH-56 had a 340 kg engine delivering over 4,000 SHP...you won't find that in piston-power.
 
And speed equals range...to cover 650 Km round trip at 300 KPH, 2-plus hours....at 600 KPH it's only a one-hour trip...and if you only have 90 minutes of fuel, well you STILL get the range, because of the massively increased cruising speed.
 
And because what took 2 hours can be done in 1, you can get more sorties, per a/c in, and ergo more ordnance delivered.  Combine that with the greater load carry-capacity of turbine a/c you have a SUPERIORITY of turbine v. piston....something that was obvious from the get-go in 1945.
 
Also, I'm afraid that the F-7F Tigercat was NOT "in service" by my definition, as it saw no combat in WWII...and to make the claim that it was the best carrier-capable a/c is ludicrous, save in the most crabbed and technical meaning of the word.  Ditto, the Bearcat, which not only did not see service, active, I don't believe developed into nearly the number of variants assigned to the F4U or the F6F.
 
The best all-round fighter of WII needs to have actually contributed to the fighting in WWII, not simply have been ready for service...by your definition, then the AD-1 is the best strike a/c of the war, though it didn't see any active service at all (in WWII)!
 
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JFKY    LB   1/4/2013 10:52:34 AM
Howling down on the Luftwaffe/Imperial Japanese forces WAS the preferred A2A tactic for the US.  It works.  And the point is that in howling down, not that you go to ground level, but that you open up such a lead that your opponent FW-190/A6M can't close it up fast enough.  Robt. Johnson fought in the vertical, and was unimpressed by roll rates...he pointed out that the Luftwaffe consistently tried to roll or dive away from the P-47, to no avail.
 
Bottom-Line: the Hi Bounce worked for P-40's/F4F's/P-47's against a host of opponents.
 
Lastly, I think we're getting kinda silly talking about the P-51 as a "carrier a/c."  By that argument so is the C-130, or the B-26....It's perfectly OK to say, as the case has been made, that the F-51 is probably the best overall fighter a/c of WII (lethal, cheap, long-ranged, multi-roled) IN A LAND CAMPAIGN and leave the USN/RN/JN a/c to another thread. 
 
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