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Subject: UK Pilot flight test the Rafale F3
Bluewings12    11/9/2009 1:57:05 PM
By Peter Collins : Chapter 1 , the aircraft : "Most advanced Allied air forces now have operational fleets of fourth-generation fighters (defined by attributes such as being fly-by-wire, highly unstable, highly agile, net-centric, multi-weapon and multi-role assets). These Western types include the Boeing F/A-18E/F Super Hornet, Dassault Rafale, Eurofighter Typhoon and Saab Gripen NG. The Boeing F-15E and Lockheed Martin F-16 have an older heritage, but their latest upgrades give them similar multi-role mission capabilities. Of the above group, only the Super Hornet and Rafale M are capable of aircraft-carrier operations. As these fourth-generation fighters' weapons, sensor systems and net-centric capabilities mature, the likelihood of export orders for such an operationally proven package becomes much more realistic. On behalf of Flight International, I became the first UK test pilot to evaluate the Rafale in its current F3 production standard, applicable to aircraft for both French air force and French navy frontline squadrons. The "proof-of-concept" Rafale A first flew in 1986 as an aerodynamic study, leading to the programme's formal launch two years later. The slightly smaller single-seat Rafale C01 and two-seat B01 for the French air force and single-seat M01 and M02 prototypes for the navy flew from 1991. The first production-standard Rafale flew in 1998, and entered service with the navy's 12F squadron at Landivisiau in 2004 in the F1 (air-to-air) standard. Deliveries of the air force's B- and C-model aircraft started in 2006 in the F2 standard, dubbed "omnirole" by Dassault. Since 2008, all Rafales have been delivered in the F3 standard, which adds reconnaissance pod integration and MBDA's ASMP-A nuclear weapon capability. All aircraft delivered in earlier production standards will be brought up to the F3 configuration over the next two years. The French forces plan to purchase 294 Rafales: 234 for the air force and 60 for the navy. Their Rafales are set to replace seven legacy fighter types, and will remain as France's principal combat aircraft until at least 2040. To date, about 70 Rafales have been delivered, with a current production rate of 12 a year. Rafale components and airframe sections are built at various Dassault facilities across France and assembled near Bordeaux, but maintained in design and engineering configuration "lockstep" using the virtual reality, Dassault-patented Catia database also used on the company's Falcon 7X business jet. Rafale software upgrades are scheduled to take place every two years, a complete set of new-generation sensors is set for 2012 and a full mid-life upgrade is planned for 2020 SUPERB PERFORMANCE The Rafale was always designed as an aircraft capable of any air-to-ground, reconnaissance or nuclear strike mission, but retaining superb air-to-air performance and capabilities. Air force and navy examples have made three fully operational deployments to Afghanistan since 2005, giving the French forces unparalleled combat and logistical experience. The commitments have also proved the aircraft's net-centric capabilities within the co-ordination required by coalition air forces and the command and control environment when delivering air support services to ground forces. Six Rafale Ms recently carried out a major joint exercise with the US Navy from the deck of the Nimitz-class aircraft carrier the USS Theodore Roosevelt. The air force's B/C fighters have 80% commonality with the navy's Rafale M model, the main differences being the latter's navalised landing gear, arrestor hook and some fuselage longitudinal strengthening. Overall, the M is about 300kg (661lb) heavier than the B, and has 13 hardpoints, against the 14 found on air force examples. Dassault describes the Rafale as omnirole rather than multirole. This is derived from the wide variety of air-to-ground and air-to-air weapons, sensor pods and fuel tank combinations it can carry; the optimisation of aircraft materials and construction; and the full authority digital FBW controlling a highly agile (very aerodynamically unstable) platform. This also gives the aircraft a massive centre of gravity range and allows for a huge combination of different mission stores to be carried, including the asymmetric loading of heavy stores, both laterally and longitudinally. Other attributes include the wide range of smart and discrete sensors developed for the aircraft, and the way that the vast array of received information is "data fused" by a powerful central computer to reduce pilot workload when presented in the head-down, head-level and head-up displays. The Rafale is designed for day or night covert low-level penetration, and can carry a maximum of 9.5t of external ordinance, equal to the much larger F-15E. With a basic empty weight of 10.3t, an internal fuel capacity of 4.7t and a maximum take-off weight of 24.5t, the Rafale can lift 140% of additional lo
 
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french stratege       11/11/2009 9:59:06 AM
 
Interesting australian article.
The problem of F35 is to have relied on passive stealth so an internal bay which increase weight and price of more than 50% and even by spending billions of $ in cost reduction measures and automation, US can not get a price lower than a F18E.
And this to carry only 2 BVR missiles and two 1 tons tons bombs internally for full stealth missions.
I don't even mention fuel operation cost roughly proportional to empty weight.
 
Flight abilities:
Rafale is a 9,5 tons aircraft with a 15 tons thrust now (and 18 tons in the future) carrying 6 BVR missiles with very good supersonic and high altitude abilities and quite good supercruise at 18 tons rating.
F35 is a 13,7 tons aircraft with a 18 tons thrust now carrying 4 BVR missiles and a dog above mach 1 and 35 000 feets with very high wing loading and frontal drag.
 
Survivability:
F35 is in the 0,001m² RCS class for US (probably dowgraded at 0,01 for some non NATO export customers) and no internal ECM
Rafale is in the 0,1 m² RCS class (illustrative to Dassault comments), and have the most sophisticated active ECM system ever put on a fighter which give a ennemy radar reduction range of a 1,5 to 3 factor so equivalent to a 5 to 81 further passive RCS reduction.
So Rafale is already in the same detection and survivability class of a 0,02 to 0,001m² passive RCS fighter.
In the future we can expect a further 10 time RCS reduction so in the same detection and survivability class  of a 0,002 to 0,0001m² passive RCS fighter (better than a F35!).
And moreover for high threat air defense, we have AASM to add 25 km range margin compare to a JDAM.
 
Systemes:
For electronic systems, they follow a 5th generation similar path. 2012 Rafale has AESA and 2015 Rafale with have better electronic systems.
I agree that F35 will have a slight 2 or 3 years technical edge in some fields which is marginal.
Moreover F35 will be available later for not first rank and NATO export customers
Futur Rafale DDM-NG (IR warning missile system) seems to have very long range and dual use capability and is likely to be similar in some aspect to F35 DAS with hemispherical capability in futur evolutions (The DDM-NG is an imaging infrared system using state of the art futur infrared chips).
Moreover it will be DIRCM compatible.
We are not in hurry to get electronic upgrades  since F35 will be available in years for export customer we could compete with.
For now F3 then roadmap Rafale excess anything available even in AtoA except F22, and is operational and is under delivery.
Improved MICA is on the way and IR version is a must to have against LO aircrafts for pure passive and no warning intercept.
 
Rafale is the only available plane in the F35 class and is jeopardizing the full F35 program by showing its program  and specification mismanagement.
But USA has no alternative for F35 now since they put all their eggs in the same basket.
They have tried to improve AtoA capabilities of F35 since F22 order was reduced and it only increased price and difficulties.
F35 is a technological marvel and still an outstanding plane.
It remember me the incredible F105 at his time, which proven it self to be a dog for air combat in Vietnam.
 
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jackjack       11/11/2009 10:14:05 AM
I AM HERE !" , Spectra is blinding the missile with accurate low power beams
 
 
that sounds great bw, the f-35 
when the f-35 guys were scratching their heads on what to put in the empty, double hatched, vertical lift box that isnt being used on a and c models
all they could think of was a 100w laser weapon
 
ps, when are you going to post on the other topic and show us the 1/2 cm of ram on the air refueler
 
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french stratege       11/11/2009 10:17:00 AM
Well the echo is "degraded" by sending out identical jamming signals, which match the characteristics of the radar signal, to actually feed wrong information. It's nothing Spectra specific however, but the way like all modern ECM systems work.
Yes for modern DFRM jammers.
What is unique to Rafale is the 3D jamming pencil beam management systems integrated to 3D RCS according to Dassault open sources, and ability to handle multithreat in several bands unless a omnidirectional jammer (towed or not).
Other feature is the integrated interferometric RWR/ESM suit similar to those of F22 or F35 with networking ability to get a 3 D mapping of air and ground threats.
Rafale RWR/ESM integrated artifical intelligence management suit to handle unknown threats and mode and pass information to the whole fleet according to Thales document which was presented here for Brazilian contract.
Probably F22, F35 have similar features but not F18E.
With AESA Rafale F3 has already system performance of early F35 plus MICA IR adn much better fight performance.
 
Maybe F35 will also have a active ECM system...post 2020 and adding more to the price!
 
I'm very sorry we choose the right path, and USA wasted their money in a gold plated program, but it is life guys!
Change the way you manage your program and hang initial DoD top managers on F35
 
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french stratege       11/11/2009 10:26:06 AM
I reput the Thales document
I remember you that DIRCM is scheduled also for Rafale roadmap.
 
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MK       11/11/2009 10:32:59 AM
Yes for modern DFRM jammers.
What is unique to Rafale is the 3D jamming pencil beam management systems integrated to 3D RCS according to Dassault open sources, and ability to handle multithreat in several bands unless a omnidirectional jammer (towed or not).
 
Advanced DRFM jammers with phased arrays (even passive) can do very much the same. Don't be to excited about the "3-D" part, it's what every modern jammer can do, not Spectra only.

Other feature is the integrated interferometric RWR/ESM suit similar to those of F22 or F35 with networking ability to get a 3 D mapping of air and ground threats.

Do you actually know what interferometry means? I ask because some people seem to be overly excited while having no idea what it actually means and how it works. Sensor fusion does very much the same on other aircraft which benefit from it. Every seen 3-D airspace presentation on Typhoon?
 
Rafale RWR/ESM integrated artifical intelligence management suit to handle unknown threats and mode and pass information to the whole fleet according to Thales document which was presented here for Brazilian contract.

That's what is called ELINT/SIGINT. Who says its inherent to the Spectra? Gripen can do so as well and other platforms possibly either, at least the latest types.
 
Probably F22, F35 have similar features but not F18E.
 
Says who, you?
 
Maybe F35 will also have a active ECM system...post 2020 and adding more to the price!

Active ECM is a part of the F-35s ECM suite and will certainly be available much sooner than you might like.

 
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french stratege       11/11/2009 10:40:22 AM
Mk
Only B1 B (and likely B2) or Growler have directional PESA or AESA jammers
BTW you need a interferometric RWR to 3D locate threats.
And obviously only Dassault has designed simultaneously the airframe and the jammer to have such 3D integration level.
Of course USA could do the same (or UK) for new program.The only problem is that they did not do it.
(F18E has a towed ominidirectional jammer and no interferometric RWR suit)
 
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french stratege       11/11/2009 10:46:33 AM
That's what is called ELINT/SIGINT. Who says its inherent to the Spectra? Gripen can do so as well and other platforms possibly either, at least the latest types.
Gripen NG or updated Gripen will have such capability, not today Gripen
Probably F22, F35 have similar features but not F18E now.
 
Says who, you?
Yes.
But it is in public datasheets of programs.F18E has a conventional numeric RWR (so a 15° accuracy order) and an ominidirectional jammer.Eurofighter has a interferometric RWR but not directional integrated jamming.
Until now only Rafale has used this concept at birth and it makes the difference.
Spectra was an enormous investment in program price.

 
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french stratege       11/11/2009 10:49:55 AM
MK, if you don't understand what makes the difference, you don't understand at all Rafale concept.
Without that, Rafale F3+ would be at F18E level (with better dynamic performance still).
 
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Kovy       11/11/2009 10:53:16 AM




13 carrier based rafale M were deployed to Afghanistan between  2007/02/11 and 2007/05/24


That's a bit more than 2 aircrafts.



Not at the same time in theatre. Check your facts, please.

The fact is that during its last deployement to the indian Ocean in support of operation enduring freedom between february 2007 and may 2007, the aircraft carrier R91 Charle de Gaulle had 12 rafale M (13 was a typo) and 16 super etendard on board... at the same time.
 
There is a nice picture of the CdG when it returned from this mission showing clearly the 12 rafale M :
http://www.netmarine.net/bat/porteavi/cdg/pourquoi/pf01.jpg" width="950" height="344" /> 
 
During the same time, 3 rafale B and 3 mirage 2000D of the french air force were also operating from Dushanbe, Tadjikistan.

So  that was a total of 15 rafale (9 rafale F1 and 6 rafale F2) deployed at the same time in theatre.
 
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Hamilcar    Uhmmmmm.   11/11/2009 1:58:45 PM

Hamilcar , you quoted and said :

 

""The formation and tail chase evaluation was initiated by locking up the Mirage 2000 chase aircraft on the RBE2 at over 55km (30nm) and identifying him visually using the FSO TV presented on the right lateral head-down display.  

That means a track solution  on the Mirage for a missile launch, not just detection. That is not good  If you can't get LAUNCH solution at > 30 miles out in a chase aspect when you see the M-2000s jet engine nozzles as huge radio reflector aids, then you are DEAD.""

Where does it say that 55km is the maximum range for a shoot ?

 Can you read the quote?

The maximum range of the Pesa RBE2 for a "shoot-down" or "shoot-up" is around 85km , the maximum detection range for a fighter size target is around 160km . It is a known fact that the Pesa RBE2 has about the same range that the RDY-2 radar onboard the M2000-5F and -9 . The RDY-2 :

ht*p://www.thalesgroup.com/assets/0/93/238/cc587e32-8330-4f83-acfa-866498d4bb1a.pdf?LangType=2057

That is ideal mythical hogwash  and its a claim for detection not track.  We also now know that Thales lies about this.
 
ht*p://www.mirage-jet.com/Variants/DASH5/RDY/rdy.htm


You see with your own eyes what the official numbers are , I 'm not trolling .  Hamilcar can bash and lie as much as he likes but it will not change a thing ...

I see what is claimed-detection not track.

Hamilcar , you also said :

""Defensive system signals processing speed cannot overcome a positive coded echo return onto a missile receiver that only has to drive into that signal to kill.  

Got it? ""

Wrong on both accounts (again) . It is rather bizarre , coming from you , to read such non-sense . By now , you suppose to know what ECM are and how they work , don 't you ? Then , you should better look at how HoJ (home on jam) really works . Trust me , look at it c-a-r-e-f-u-l-y and take a bit of time to understand the shortcomings . HoJ is better than nothing but the PoK is extremely low .

You really didn't read what I wrote did you. I said RECEIVER in missile and referred to another hilariously wrong statement on Moore's Law as to offense and defense signal processing. How do you home on jam on a propagated or reflected OUTBOUND signal from a target into a missile's receiver again. (launch a weapon at it? HOW? )? You do realize what you just said is not only wrong but it is hilariously wrong?  
 
Also , while any good old jamming suite is trying to degrade and electronicaly attack the opposite EM emitters/emissions , a better and late ECM suite will also try to degrade the echo itself , which is a new thing .

Wrong. You can modulate, phase,  boost, physically scatter, rereadiate,  or materially absorb light, You cannot violate energy conservation. You cannot degrade signal unless you use material measures to ABSORB and convert to HEAT (kinetics inside the painted material object)  when it comes to Light. You do know how photons work, right? No you do not. 
 

As an exemple , I often read that towed decoys (a la Typhoon for exemple) is a must to fight the HoJ capability of some clever designed missiles . This is indeed a good way , draw the adverse missile onto the loudest electronical noise trailing behind the aircraft . Unfortunatly , it "eats" 2 very decent hardpoints and you only have 2 of them , after using them you must feel a bit "naked" ... However , it is indeed better than nothing and the good thing is that the system works 360 degree .
 
A towed decoy does not jam anything. Its a signal mimicker. Its designed to imitate a target's signal characteristics by  being lo
 
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