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Subject: Magic Mossies
Aussiegunneragain    7/11/2010 9:01:10 AM
There was a thread on here a few years ago put up by a fellow named Shooter, who was trying to make the argument that the Dehavilland Mosquito was a strategically insignificant aircraft which should never have been produced for the RAF, because it represented a waste of engines which could have better been used in Avro Lancasters. Shooter, an American, had a hobby of trying to diss any non-American type that had an excellent reputation (the Spitfire was another favourite target) and most people here told him he was being a clown with that being the end of it. However, the thread has stuck in the back of my mind and made me wonder whether in fact the Mossie, despite its widespread usage in a variety of roles, was in fact underutilised in the daylight strategic bombing role? It did perform some very important low level raids such as the daylight raid on the Phillips radio works (along with Ventura's and Bostons - far less Mossies were shot down)in Holland during Operation Oyster. However, I can't find many references to the Mossie being used for the sort of regular high altitude daylight strategic bombing missions that the B-17 and other USAF daylight heavies conducted. Consider its characteristics: -It could carry 4 x 500lb bombs all the way to Berlin which meant that you needed three mossies to carry a slightly larger warload than one B-17 did, which upon this basis meant more engine per lb of bomb in the Mossie. -However, the Mossie was hard to catch and was more survivable than the Heavies. The latter only really became viable with the addition of long-range escort fighters, something that the mossie could have done without. -It only required two crew versus ten on a B-17. Without intending to be critical of the USAF daylight heavies, because they were one of the strategically vital assets in winning WW2, I am wondering whether had the RAF used the Mossie in the role at the expense of night bombing operations in Lancasters? I have read accounts that suggest that the later were not really directly successful in shutting down German production, with the main contribution being that they forced the Germans to provide 24/7 air defence. If they had used Mossies more in the daylight precision role is it possible that the impact that the fighter-escorted USAF bombers had on German production might have been bought forward by a year or so, helping to end the War earlier? Another idea that I have is that if Reich fighter defences had started to get too tough for unescorted Merlin powered Mossies on strategic daylight missions, that they could have built the Griffon or Sabre powered versions that never happenned to keep the speed advantage over the FW-190? Up-engined Fighter versions of the Mossie would also have probably had sufficient performance to provide escort and fighter sweep duties in Germany in order to provide the bombers with even more protection. Thoughts? (PS, in case anybody hasn't worked it out the Mossie is my favourite military aircraft and my second favourite aircraft after the Supermarine S-6B ... so some bias might show through :-). I do think it has to rate as one of the best all round aircraft of all time based on its merits alone).
 
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oldbutnotwise       2/22/2013 3:45:44 AM
What I did say that at an MTO of ~23,000 pounds the range was just less than 1,100 miles and that the range from the air fields was about 1,050 miles from base to Berlin and back to base! But much more importantly, the mission you posit was flown by Mossies that had little relation to the plane described in that manual
hardly little relationship 90% comonality and thats between a fighter bombe and a unarmed bomber
The FB was by far the shortest ranged Mossie (even with the long range tank that sat in the bomb bay yet did not prevent the carrying of the 2x500lbs that were carried if the tank wasnt fitted)
 
and had MTOs of 25,000 pounds and a special "Long Range Tank" in the fuse above but not in  the bomb bay!
They used all 715 gallons, and the round trip range was less than 1,100 miles, which included dropping the bomb half way! 
 
yet somehow they managed to bomb Danzig (which to remind you is only 30 miles from the FockerWulf plant that consituted the USAAF furthest raid of the war)
 
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45-Shooter       2/22/2013 8:26:58 PM



So, four crews bombed Berlin in broad daylight? With possibly only eight 500 pound bombs? Note that there are five sections of film, watch them all! 
 
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45-Shooter       2/22/2013 8:33:13 PM


What I did say that at an MTO of ~23,000 pounds the range was just less than 1,100 miles and that the range from the air fields was about 1,050 miles from base to Berlin and back to base! But much more importantly, the mission you posit was flown by Mossies that had little relation to the plane described in that manual
hardly little relationship 90% comonality and thats between a fighter bombe and a unarmed bomber
  No, the later Mk-VIs and Mk-35s were very different from the FB and Mk-VI that that manual applied to. The engines were different, the bomb bay doors were bulged and there was more/different tankage.
and had MTOs of 25,000 pounds and a special "Long Range Tank" in the fuse above but not in  the bomb bay!

yet somehow they managed to bomb Danzig (which to remind you is only 30 miles from the FockerWulf plant that consituted the USAAF furthest raid of the war)
But the most important question about that raid is that which you have not posted! How many and how heavy were the bombs that they used? Also, did those exact planes have the bulged bomb bay doors or not?

You see the devil is in the details as each of those factors has a substantial effect on range!

 
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Belisarius1234       2/22/2013 8:50:07 PM
Yes WOFTAM, they BOMBED in Daylight. Did you listen to the people? Send the money and stop your nonsense.
 
B.
 






>>. com="" video="" berlin-bombed-daylight-raid-interviews-aka-berlin"="" target="_blank">http://www.britishpathe.com/video/berlin-bombed-daylight-raid-interviews-aka-berlin">In broad daylight....







So, four crews bombed Berlin in broad daylight? With possibly only eight 500 pound bombs? Note that there are five sections of film, watch them all! 

 
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oldbutnotwise       2/23/2013 12:36:06 PM
What I did say that at an MTO of ~23,000 pounds the range was just less than 1,100 miles and that the range from the air fields was about 1,050 miles from base to Berlin and back to base!
actually thats flying a direct route which never happened so its a bit longer than 525 miles so it looks like the RAF lied about these missions or you are wrong
 But much more importantly, the mission you posit was flown by Mossies that had little relation to the plane described in that manual
hardly little relationship 90% comonality and thats between a fighter bombe and a unarmed bomber
  No, the later Mk-VIs and Mk-35s were very different from the FB and Mk-VI that that manual applied to. The engines were different, the bomb bay doors were bulged and there was more/different tankage.
but these wernt later MKVIs were they so thats a pointless argument, the later buldge bays were for the 4000lbs (and were retrofited to earlier aircraft as it wasnt much work) they did find that the earlier model was of handle to fly which the two stage merlins extra length countered however they fitted piggyback racks to the mossie which up the conventional load to 6x 500lbs which was flown to berlin, the bombers and fighter had exactly the same tankage the only diffence being that the FB could have a bomb bay tank (the PR mossie was the only other model to have this facility)
 
and had MTOs of 25,000 pounds and a special "Long Range Tank" in the fuse above but not in  the bomb bay!
actually it was IN the bomb bay and was located aft of the 20mm breaches

yet somehow they managed to bomb Danzig (which to remind you is only 30 miles from the FockerWulf plant that consituted the USAAF furthest raid of the war)
But the most important question about that raid is that which you have not posted! How many and how heavy were the bombs that they used? Also, did those exact planes have the bulged bomb bay doors or not?
well looking it would seem that danzig was hit by mossies a few times with both 4x500lbs and 4000lbs so it would look like it didnt matter
 
 
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45-Shooter       2/25/2013 12:13:32 AM

Yes WOFTAM, they BOMBED in Daylight. Did you listen to the people? Send the money and stop your nonsense.
 
B.
So, four crews bombed Berlin in broad daylight? With possibly only eight total 500 pound bombs? Note that there are five sections of film, watch them all! 



The money was if anyone could proove that I said or wrote that they could not bomb Berlin . Possibly with a 4000 pound bomb.
 
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Belisarius1234    Send the money.    2/25/2013 12:23:27 AM
Read about a dozen posts back, Stuart.
 
 
B.
 
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45-Shooter       2/25/2013 9:54:37 PM

Read about a dozen posts back, Stuart. B.



I did and I wrote nothing of the kind! IE "That it was not possible to bomb Berlin"! I wrote that is was, just that they took off at much higher weights than you claimed! I note that you have still not posted any sort of mission profile to dispute my list of fuel expenditures on such a mission! Why have you failed to do that? Plock-plock-plock-PLOCK--- It's Chicken Man!
 
 
 
 
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Belisarius1234       2/25/2013 10:31:47 PM
There, I said it.
 
B.
 
 
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Belisarius1234    Prevaricator.   2/25/2013 10:32:38 PM
You did say it.

There, I said it.

 

B.

 

 
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