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Subject: Rafale Proves Itself
SYSOP    8/7/2011 7:59:23 AM
 
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BWisBack    @gf then @Herald   12/12/2011 9:02:58 PM
gf : You keep banning me for no reason and I am getting tired of this personal hate .
I have said or done absolutly nothing wrong and you don 't even have the politness to explain to me by mail why you keep closing my account . If you behave like God on this site , be true to yourself and be fair and honest . Thank you .
 
Now , when I witness Mr Halloweene posting true facts and being unfairly attacked by Herald with his usual lies and semantic , I ask myself how in hell can you support such character as Herald and why he 's still posting freely ?
Something is very wrong here .
 
@Herald :  I know your little game too well and you do NOT respond to halloweene 's questions because you simply can 't deny the facts without using treachery . You are a pathetic sick man , it is what you are .
Yes , the Rafale won the Swiss technical eval like it also won the technical evals in Singapore and Korea . You like it or not , it 's not gonna change a thing .
You don 't care about foreign MoDs press release as long as they don 't fit your sick mind and you also bash Jane 's when you relied on it so much in the past . Remember ?
When you are asked by Das Kardinal to provide numbers , you flee and post irrelevant links who makes you look even more stubborn and stupid . In the mean time , I am sure that you see yourself as the biggest PC armchair military poster of all time ...  What you deserve is to meet someone like me face to face
If you would , just for a second , think that we , French posters , are here to discuss facts and only facts , you would make a great step forward . The problem lies in you Herald , not in us , be sure of it .
Few examples , you have never been capable to prove you babbling about the RBE2 being a "crap" (?) radar because it is "supposed" to have side lobes noise when it hasn 't . Give us a bloody study with clear numbers and math equations to prove you case or shut up once for all , ok ? Also , try to prove that the Aesa version doesn 't fit the bill , just try .
Everything you say about the Dassault Rafale is tainted , tainted .
I am certainly not trying to change your mind since it is impossible , what I am writing is for the other posters , for those who are looking for FACTS, them being for or against the Rafale , but FACTS and facts only .
It would take me ages and pages to correct you since you are making so many errors that even a Dassault engineer would give up . In fact , you are a crook Herald , nothing more .
I know that only StartegyPage allows you to post your BS because any decent military site with true and good moderators would sack you in no time . 
@gf : you 're a Mod on antother site as well and you do a much better job than here .
@Herald again : if the Mod(s) here don 't kill my account again , I will help you to dig your own hole and you will disapear into oblivion once for all , count on me . No more BS about the Rafale will be allowed .
But if you make the effort to to be fair and not partial and biased , you 'll find in me respect and fairness .
Enough for now . Let 's go back to the topic at hand .
 
The AdlA did put a rather nice show in Libya and the MN (CBG , Mistral Command ship and various Fregates) did an outstanding job . Herald , read this regarding the French Mistral Command ship and Her Tigers combat choppers :
 
""The C2 on the ship is first rate and was part of the link to the air fleet in receiving and processing information to shape an intelligence picture to support strike operations.  What this demonstrated that integrating maritime with land-based air can provide a powerful littoral operations capability, one which may prove very relevant to the United States as it rethinks the relationship between the USAF and the USN-USMC team in shaping 21st century operations. ""
 
In fact , numbers show that the French are to be accounted for about 55% of the total fighting in Libya , from the air and from the sea . The Libyans did the fighting on the ground and praise to them .
 
Cheers .
 
 
 
 
 
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BWisBack       12/12/2011 9:15:47 PM
Many pages ago , I posted US Predators sortie rates (Herald were asking for) .
In fact , the US only used 2 Predators and were very little involved with regard to air Ops . The French complained but nothing was done on the US side to ease the Ops , nothing . 
 
Now , what about changing the NATO RoEs ? 
 
""Two additional aspects of operations as they moved forward were highlighted from the French point of view. First, the limitations placed on the operation curtailed the ability to succeed and enhanced the ability of Ghadafi to survive. And second, after the initial air operations, dynamic targeting was a central objective, and various problems in executing such targeting became evident.

The limitations were three fold.

First, rules of engagement were being proposed by the partners of France in NATO that were “ridiculous” to quote one French officer. “We received from NATO sources the directive that there were to be NO civilian casualties from our air strikes. My view was “why not just not do airstrikes.” We pushed back and insisted on something sane: “No excessive civilian casualties from NATO air strikes.”

And the second limitation was allowing Gadaffi to operate in a sanctuary in Libya. As one officer put it: “We wanted to destroy an airfield being used by Gadaffi to bring in mercenaries. We should have destroyed this airfield.” Third, the American contribution was much more limited than it needed to be. Another officer added “We had 4-5 areas to cover for the air operation; the Americans provided only two UAVs – Predators—which operated for only part of the day. We need to augment our own capabilities to be sure, but……”

And finally the operation underscored the challenge of “dynamic targeting.” The shift from destroying identifiable military equipment being used by the Libyan forces supporting Gadaffi to engaging forces on the ground countering the rebels required “dynamic targeting.” And this can only be done by situational awareness which allows aircraft to target elements blended with the population and this requires aircraft flying low, with close proximity weapons, with forces on the ground able to identify targets in a fluid situation. As a French officer put it: “We had difficulty getting authorization to fly low, we had limited close proximity weapons and we had severe limitations of forces on the ground able to identify accurate targets.”
We are reluctant to give a guy with SA in the pilot’s seat authority, why are we going to give some guy in Nevada or Paris looking through a soda straw the authority to do dynamic targeting.”""
 
I was NOT surprised a bit to read such statements by the French .
Why not ?
Because NATO 's RoE are dictated by the USA which are themselves (the rules) used by the USA . The way THEY fight (the USA) must be the way how the others must fight . http://forum.keypublishing.com/images/smilies/eek.gif" alt="" title="EEK!" class="inlineimg" border="0" />
Well , I am happy to see that some French Officials want to throw the US toys out of the pram , if I may say . Since the War in Bosnia (Kosovo and Co) , we have repeated to the USA times and times again that their RoE are not compatible with how we fight .
To put it simply , they are a bunch a cowboys who are setting up rules to avoid to be too much "cowboys" . They simply forget that they are the only cowboys around , shooting at everything who moves with all guns blazing .
The others are not behaving like that and should not obey to stupid rules designed to avoid being ... cowboys .

It is the size of the fight in the dog who is important , not the size of the dog . Because they are the biggest bunch , all the others should obey to THEIR rules . Pathetic if you ask me ...
I am not anti-american , it is just that they should understand that they are not the best around when it comes to fighting and decision making .
But they don 't want to ...http://forum.keypublishing.com/images/smilies/mad.gif" alt="" title="Mad" class="inlineimg" border="0" />
 
Cheers .
 
 
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heraldabc       12/12/2011 9:19:40 PM
Enjoy your stay, Blue Wings. I actually hoped you learned something during your vacation.  But seeing your comments, I guess you didn't. Example: the French high command actually complained that they were unprepared, and use the excuse that Sarkozy had not kept them in the loop, nor were they allowed under French law to plan offensive operations until the civilian leadership authorized same. Unlike YOU, I BELIEVE them and take them at their word. Honeur you know? 
 
Besides THAT is French Law and that is the way Sarkozy operates. 
 
H.
 
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heraldabc       12/12/2011 9:42:09 PM
When you are asked by Das Kardinal to provide numbers , you flee and post irrelevant links who makes you look even more stubborn and stupid . In the mean time , I am sure that you see yourself as the biggest PC armchair military poster of all time ...  What you deserve is to meet someone like me face to face
I do believe that is a threat. 
 
As for meeting face to face for what, truck-driver?  To prove what? You cannot say that you know, because we (I) know youy don't. I tire of your vainglory.
 
Apologize for your comment and then show some decorum this time during your stay.
 
I won't say cheers back because that salute is meaningless with me from you.
 
Instead, have a good night.  
 
H.
 
 
 
 
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BWisBack       12/12/2011 10:23:53 PM
Herald :
 
""Example: the French high command actually complained that they were unprepared, and use the excuse that Sarkozy had not kept them in the loop, nor were they allowed under French law to plan offensive operations until the civilian leadership authorized same. Unlike YOU, I BELIEVE them and take them at their word. Honeur you know? ""
 
Indeed , the French Forces complained that they were unprepared for such a hasty and complicated operation , who would not be ? The USA ? lol .
France (Sarkozy) was first to aknowledged the new free Libyan Authority to allow military Ops to begin , don 't you remember Herald ? Then , French aircraft (Rafales) were already flying over Libya days before the decision making , don 't you remember Herald ? In fact , it took France very little time to setup an air (and sea) campaign  . We simply used our usual way to do things very fast when it matters like we did many times before in Africa . The Forces go in and wait for the green flag to start fighting .
Credit has to be given to Sarkozy but but it is how France always behave when push comes to shove . Chirac and other French Presidenst did it before . 
 
Cheers .
 
 
 
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BWisBack       12/12/2011 10:46:45 PM
Herald , since 5 years I am indeed a truck driver and it is a rather nice jod , tiring but a nice job .
What you like to forget is the fact that I have been in the French Airforce for years , unlike you SIR .
 
To people like me , you really look like a ... clown . Is "clown" an insult for you ? Not for me . I guess that your only good friend is Google . 
I also note that one more time , you do NOT respond to questions and you flee or you shoot at the messenger , how convenient ...
 
Cheers .
 
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45-Shooter    Blind questioning the one eyed man?   12/12/2011 10:55:46 PM



http://www.defenceaviation.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/07/Rafale.jpg" width="640" height="426" />

 

You see where the air ram tunnels to the M-88s are, Hollow?  You see where the strakes that lead to the canard are?

 

A canard...... by the way...is a fore-wing used for pitch control on a delta winged aircraft.

 

As for the rest of your noise... HAVE A NICE DAY.

 

H.

 

 

See the splitter plates between the inlets and the strakes? They prevent the ingestion of air compressed by the strakes. lots of dirty and or bottom intake planes have them. See the dump doors behind the inlets? They feed air to the engine any time the inlet ram pressure is not sufficient to keep them closed with respect to the ambient pressure outside of the inlets! That photo tells me and any other even mildly educated person that the air pressure inside the inlet is lower than the air pressure over the doors! The engine is sucking more air than the inlet flows!
Your picture blows great big holes in your strake compression theory!
Ps. Anyone with half a brain also knows the inlets are sized for M-1.8+-!
But that is not even close to the most telling details of the picture!
There is a huge CL semi-Drop Tank along with two very big Drop tanks and only TWO AAMs to let the little plane with the big heart carry two semi-heavy bombs to the required distance! How far was that exactly? RIGHT! Rafale is dogmeat and every nation that has seen it knows it!

 
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45-Shooter       12/12/2011 11:15:13 PM


its not a presentation, its official results from armasuisse
source Basler zeitung

Switzerland, Armasuisse officialy ranks the Rafale first

A few days before switzerland makes its final choice, the main operational results of the Armasuisse evaluation have been released.

Armasuisse made a first evaluation of the Gripen, Rafale and Eurofighter in 2008. Several Air to Air and Air to Ground trials were performed by the 3 contenders, in Switzerland,  in order to assess their relative efficiency in different roles.
A second Evaluation was done between March and August 2009 to take into account the upgrades and improvements of the 3 fighters in their "2015 form". This evaluation was based on data provided by the manufacturers or simulated flights. This final Armasuisse report, with updated rankings was released in November 2009 and is recommending the Rafale for the Swiss Air Force (confirming the rumors heard during the last 2 years).

In this report, each capability is ranked on 9 points, 6 points being the minimum score to meet the Swiss Air Force requirement (We understand that the 6 points benchmark would be the F/A-18C score)

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-UllaAXo7QnY/TtaTpBS5UWI/AAAAAAAACHs/rk5-LU3C3JA/s320/armassuisse_eval.png" width="320" height="214" />
©Basler Zeitung November 30, 2011
Basler Zeitung has published the scores for 2 main mission types (see above) : Air defense and Ground attack mission. The green scores refers to the 2008 evalaluation while the red scores refers to the final 2009 evaluation including 2015 improvements.
  • The Rafale is ranked first with 7.28 and 7.41 points, 
  • The Eurofighter second with 6.49 and 6.54 points,
  • The Gripen is third with 5.68 and 5.62 points. Therefore it does not manage to pass the threshold of 6 points.

Various quotes from the report :

"Rafale and Eurofighter showed generally better performance than the F/A-18, Gripen worse" 

"The performance of the Gripen in air-air engagements as well as attack missions was insufficient"


"The most limiting factors of the Gripen design were the operating time, the flight performance and the maximum weapon load"

"The Rafale is the only aircraft that has met the requirements of the Air Force in all types of applications"
 
So the report is quite clear regarding the capabilities of the 3 aircrafts:
1- The Rafale is the best technical performer and thus recommended as the Tiger replacement.
2- The Rafale was ranked above the Eurofighter in both Air defense and ground attack missions.
3- The Gripen has serious weaknesses and is considered as a step back compared to the F/A-18 operated by the Swiss Air Force.

Sources:
Basler Zeitung
Bazonline.ch...... 

SO YOUR BELOVED F 18 resigned, and EFA was ranked behind Rafale (as usual) but i guess you are going to explain me you are more expert then armasuisse in fighter planes. Grippen won (well not finished many swiss politicians disagree) on low cost and offically stated that they intently do not want to bring swiss to top europe airforce standards....

Read a bit before getting a headache while stupid laughing. This analysis is the official one from a neutral country that did deep insight inquiries about the three planes. They finally choiced Gripen as low cost fighter and quoted Rafale by far AHEAD of EFA.

 
Money TALKs and BS WALKS!

All of the above aside, which AC did the Swiss buy? I honestly do not know! My thought was that if the Swiss are comparing the Rafale to the F/A-18C as you mentioned, then they are admitting that it is TWO DECADES, if not three out of date! Nation-States that want to play with the big dogs think F/A-18E-F, F-15E-S, F-35, or F/A-22! Those that can not afford to play with the big dogs buy the Eurofighter Typhoon, Su-30 family, OR the F-16-Block-60+! All AC that HAVE made sales in the last decade or so! Besides the French civil union workers who demanded a Frogish choice, who has bought Rafale?
 
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45-Shooter       12/12/2011 11:18:16 PM


having actually done platform assessments - for 3 countries let me add a little reality check here.


platform assessments are not "graded" in such simplistic terms.  they are certainly not subsets out of a total of 10.


the last major asset assessment I was involved in ran to 550 pages and included 15 major areas of assessment (there is no adding up of all the vectors, and there is a classified section in all reports which does not get released into the public domain, and the breakdown is not even discussed with the competing vendors that were less successful)


I would add that the assessment data released to the companies was approx 12 gig of material - technical material, not pictures and photos, but actual performance data.


whatever that output is, it is certainly not the actual assessment and if anything is but a fraction of the actual results.


its basically meaningless. airforces do not pick platforms just because they are the cheapest, it includes interoperability issues, it includes maint and sustainment issues, it includes the training components, it includes the ILS issues, it includes through life costs, it includes future development costs, it includes weapons integration, it includes extant systems integration with other service elements.


anyone claiming that this is the summary of results has no idea of how we actually do a platform assessment.


You are absolutely correct!!!!
 
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45-Shooter       12/13/2011 12:02:23 AM


FACT is US are going to leave Irak and Afghanistan in an awful mess, due to stupid neocons politics.(not including us soldiers, they do a nice job there, even if they need an average of 20000 cartridges for each neutralized insurgent).

FACT is trying to buy mistral was a spying act, exactly what you charge french for.

FACT is F35 is the biggest industrial failure since 50 years (but you do know how to build a plane /ROFL), it will work properly...In 2020 at 200 million dollars each? (see Mc Cain etc.)

FACT is also you keep denying it despite bunch of evidences Rafale won the tech eval in switzerland (but yes as swiss MoD said, "best tech was not needed by swiss")

I dunno why you are talking to me about a cranked delta wing, but if you really look at RAfale early programs, it was considered then rejected...Nvm i NEVER posted about cranked delta wings. Is it a diversion ?

First; It's not NEOCON politics, it's Liberal Politics based on the Franco-Germanic ideas of Marx and others! Read your history! It was NEOCON politics that saved Euro buts three times last century and are about to save you all again when the euro crumbles!

Second; It's not spying if we buy it from a third party that you sold it to! Once you sold it you lost all claim to it!

Third; If the F-35 becomes a failure, it will certainly still be a better plane than Grippen, Rafale or Typhoon. Which are all still better than any commi toys! Su-30s are junk and the Mig concern is just about bankrupt!

Forth; You're denial of the fact that IF it actually had won, then the Swiss would have bought it! But they did not buy it, so it lost! End of tail! There is so much more to the Evals than you know that you are dangerous to the French Nation. Failure to recognize your defects is invitation to defeat! Read your history to learn more about that, or more correctly those!

Fifth; I was working for Boeing and then Micky-D back then and I know a great deal more than you do about what went on back then. There were no published reports that stated that they actually looked at Compound delta wings! They never asked Boeing for any of their extensively researched data. As far as I know, they never asked any one for it and there is no record of any single wind tunnel test of a cranked delta planform model! None what so ever! And I do know what they did do in that regard! ( NOTHING!)

 
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