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Subject: Rafale Proves Itself
SYSOP    8/7/2011 7:59:23 AM
 
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BWisBack       12/16/2011 6:14:09 PM
Mk :
""Then you see shooter coming up with bogus numbers claiming an F-16E blk weighs less than 8.6 t, when the very link he gives states an empty weight of more than 8.9 t for a non-CFT equipped blk 50/52 for example. That someone like BW doesn't even figure this is testimony to has narrow focus on the Rafale only, being ignorant towards other (in this case non-French) platforms doesn't help people to make their case. ""
 
Well , you are right . I should have noticed that but to my defense , I don 't know the various F-16 blocks characteristics like the palm of my hand . Nevertheless , I should have check and I plead guilty . I will not happen again .
Here on SP , one need to be very careful and providing credible sources is of the utmost importance because bashing becomes less possible , which is good . I try to give as much credible sources as I can but I need to find them from a english speaking site because very few here would believe a french source which is somehow pathetic . Also , if I need to translate a french article , it is sometimes harder than some believe as I don ' think the online translators are that good .
Sometimes , I wish that some here would speak french . Since I left the UK (5 years ago) my english is going down the hole and I know it . When I find an old post of mine from 7 or 8 years ago , I can 't believe how good my english was compare to now ...
 
Stobie :
""Fair play- Rafale demonstrated it's reliable in combat and the CdG kept up a tremendous ops tempo. I think they done good. ""
 
+1 . 
Overall , the French Navy did an outstanding job . Not only he CBG  but numerous Frigates and Command Ships (Mistral and Tonnerre) . The GAM (Groupe Aero Mobile) was composed of MN combat choppers but also from the Army (ALAT) . It was a first timer for the Army to be deployed at sea with their helos . It wasn 't such an easy tasks for the Army and it took few days (3 days) to overcome a couple of minor problems . The combat choppers fired 431 HOT missiles in the first 4 month of the war and God knows how many rounds . The Army choppers pilots also learned that the food is better in the Navy !
One more time , it has to be noted that the MN and the RN worked with each other flawlessly , as usual , even if it was the first time for a long time they undertook coastal defense suppression and CAS from offshore . 
The RN needs a carrier or two with a proper naval striker-fighter like the Rafale or the SH , the F-35 being almost a dead end now . Its price has gone up by 70% since 2002 and the prototypes didn 't show anything meaningfull but teething problems , the latest being "cracks" in the main airframe which shows the poor quality or at least a lack of quality controls .
 
Cheers .
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
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BWisBack       12/16/2011 6:44:33 PM
@Breaka
The EJ200 is a hell of an engine , the best around . R&R did a very good job .
 
Now , while the numbers you collected are correct , your conclusion is missing the most imporatnt factor : the aerodynamism of the aircraft and there , the Rafale beats the F-16 which translate into totally new numbers .
 
Cheers .
 
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45-Shooter       12/16/2011 7:42:35 PM


Bloddy site software :






h*tp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QZfm2dtyyPI

 

Cheers .
 





 
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BWisBack       12/16/2011 8:29:03 PM
I 've just checked again the MN OOB (Order Of Battle) and I am surprised by the numbers .
No less than 29 warships were involded (not all at the same time) and up to 4 nuke attack subs .
 
N. Sarkozy decided very early (May the 12th) to use the Army combat choppers and requested them to fight from the Tonnerre Command ship and 18 helos (Tigers , Gazelles , Pumas and Caracals) were onboard the 17th of May (5 days later) with all their gears and maintenance crews . They started the fight when on site . Then , 3 weeks later , everything has to be moved onto the Mistral Command ship who took the relay .
 
The CdG launched 2380 sorties as follow :
- 840 strikes 
- 390 Recons
- 120 Intel/ELINT
- 240 buddy-buddy refueling
The rest being CAPs .
 
Never before the CdG has been THAT busy and everything went smoothly and according to plans . 
The Rafales reached an outstanding 98% availability while being only 10 onboard the Carrier (with 6 SEMs , 2 Hawkeyes and few Helos) , the rest of the Rafales coming from land bases .
From our point of view , it went well .
If things would have gone pear shape on the ground , we could have landed 60 Leclercs MBTs in emergency 10 days after the first strike if the UN Concil allowed such a move .
 
Cheers .
 
 
 
 
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BWisBack       12/16/2011 8:37:55 PM
Shooter , I don 't know how to put links or videos on SP . I 'm using Firefox .
Can someone teach me , please ?
 
Anyway , I am sure that you watched the video and the debrief which is the most important part in my view .
"Gifts were outstanding , fellowship was outstanding , the ... snoof was outstanding and ... Au revoir mon Ami"
 
Cheers .
 
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45-Shooter    Mia culpa! Got data from more than 1 site!   12/16/2011 8:52:03 PM

"Then you see shooter coming up with bogus numbers claiming an F-16E blk weighs less than 8.6 t, when the very link he gives states an empty weight of more than 8.9 t for a non-CFT equipped blk 50/52 for example."
Nevertheless , I should have check and I plead guilty.

General Characteristics
Contractor: Lockheed Martin Corp.
Power Plant: F-16C/D: one Pratt and Whitney F100-PW-200/220/229 or General Electric F110-GE-100/129
Thrust: F-16C/D, 27,000 pounds
Wingspan: (9.8 meters)
Length: (14.8 meters)
Height: (4.8 meters)
Weight: (8,936 kilograms)
Maximum Takeoff Weight: (16,875 kilograms)
Fuel Capacity: internal (3,175 kilograms); typical capacity, 12,000 pounds with two external tanks (5443 kilograms)
Payload: Two 2,000-pound bombs, two AIM-9 and 1,040-gallon external tanks
Speed: 1,500 mph (Mach 2.2 at altitude)
Range: More than 2,002 miles ferry range (1,740 nautical miles)
Ceiling: Above 50,000 feet (15 kilometers)
Armament: One M-61A1 20mm multibarrel cannon with 500 rounds; external stations can carry up to six air-to-air missiles, conventional air-to-air and air-to-surface munitions and electronic countermeasure pods
Crew: F-16C, one; F-16D, one or two
Initial operating capability: F-16A, January 1979; F-16C/D Block 25-32, 1981;
F-16C/D Block 40-42, 1989; and F-16C/D Block 50-52, 1994
Inventory: Total force, F-16C/D, 1,280

Point of Contact
Air Combat Command,... Public Affairs Office; 757-764-5007; e-mail: accpa.operations@langley.af.mi...


What I find interesting is the installed thrust of 27,000 pounds with either engine! This is from the original (small) inlet. The second type is the MCID that gives ~29,000 Lbs. The newest inlet on the Block 60+ planes gives 32,500. Note that the latest engines are not used on USAF planes.
Part 2. BWisBack posted the most wonderful link in the world which showed Rafale pilots in ACM with f-16D-25/40s at Red Flag. ID from the pictures with two seat cockpit and the list of planes used at Red Flag. The best part of the entire thing, and I have fixed enough of these things to know exactly what they show, is that the Radar lock, IE the box around the target was intermitant the entire time! There was not one entire second of continous tracking lock in the entire film! I watched it three times entire and half a dozen partials looking very closely. The second part of looking through the HUD was that the Gun Line was very ragged and curved back and forth from center bottom to mid right, then far left, back to far right and bounced up and down the entire time! Watch it! It did not have three continous frames with the -16 under any part of the line and absolutely none at the end were the bullets are! but the best part of the entire film is the first 2:40 of the film. When "Fights on" is called the Frog pilot spends almost one entire minute looking hard over his shoulder. That means the F-16 was BEHIND his 3-9 line all that time. Look up 40 second Boyd! 60+ seconds in the dead man's seat. Powerfull testimony as to why they have not sold any of these things to anyone else but themselves!

All in all, this is the most wonderfull advertisement for the F-16D-25/40 ever made!

Part two; In your other post you mention the "Cranked Delta" from the picture. That is not a cranked delta. It has a minor change in sweep of the leading edge. The "Cranked Delta" reffers ot an initial sweep of 70-75 degrees and an outboard sweep of 35-45 degrees. Nothing at all like the picture you post.
Part three; I like how you duck the entire argument about reduced inlet temp and super cruise. You state that because it was part of the Indian requirement, it must be so? A monumental failure of the logic proccesses! Post a single link where a foriegn pilot has flown or been in the back seat when this has been demonstrated WO exceeding turbine inlet temp restrictions at the time! Just one!
Serriously?
Lastly, I love the link to the cockpit vid so much I saved it to use later! Thanks!
 
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45-Shooter    Mia culpa! Got data from more than 1 site!   12/16/2011 9:17:02 PM


Shooter , I don 't know how to put links or videos on SP . I 'm using Firefox .

Can someone teach me , please ?

 

Anyway , I am sure that you watched the video and the debrief which is the most important part in my view .

"Gifts were outstanding , fellowship was outstanding , the ... snoof was outstanding and ... Au revoir mon Ami"

 

Cheers .



I just use real software from Microsoft, not that cheap knock-off stuff. Cut and paste. Like this link from Dasault;
It shows the EEW as 10 T. But elsewhere on that same site it states that the Naval version is >11T and someplace else it states that the Naval version is only 500 Kg heavier than the AF unit. Now someplace on that site has made a 500 kilo mistake in addition or subtraction or they are rounding up and down by a similar figure. I personaly suspect that they do more than a little of both! I think, and I am just an AVIONICs WHEENEE that the Naval version masses about 11.2 T and the AF version about 10.6+-. But in any case the Dasault people themselve state as of today at 20:02 hours, CST, USA that the AF Rafale weighs 10 Tonnes and the naval aircraft weighs 11 Tonnes and that there is only a 500 kilogram difference between them1 You tell me which is right! Lastly, they mention the thrust as 7.5 T X 2. So a best case scenario, using Dasault's own numbers is 10T+.09T pilot+4X112 Missiles+150 rounds at .735 Kg each, or 110 KG+ 4.7 t internal fuel = 15,384 kG/15,000 kG THRUST = .997/1 T/W Using your numbers for the F-16 from my last post 8.9+3.2+.09+.540+.127 = 12,832 Kg/14,739 = 1.149, or using USAF data from older plane than they are currently selling 12,832/12,245 = .954/1!
So using the oldest planes still in service the Rafale beats the F-16 block 40 by 4.5%, but the newest F-16 block 60 beats the Rafale by 15.25% in the VITAL T/W catagory!
Finally; You never addressed the 13 degree Vs 30 degree seat back issue where the Viper pilot can pull harder on the stick to induce more G faster than the Rafale pilot as amply demonstrated by your wonderful video post! God, I love it!
 
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BWisBack       12/16/2011 9:34:34 PM
Shooter , when you will talk about the video , don 't forget to mention that the F-16s did get their butts spanked .
The FAF and USAF said that the score in the first 2 days was 6-2 in favor of the Rafale and then ... "the ...snoof was outstanding" .
 
So please and for your own sake , don 't start spreading BS on the Net . It is not going to work . 
Even the F-22 had a hard time to get a cannon kill on a Rafale and it came as a surprise to me . I underestimated the F-22 in dogfight but as the reports show , the F-22s had to burn a huge amount of fuel to keep up and if we beleive the articles , the F-22s went "bingo" twice .
In fact , I care more about how the Rafale performs vs Russian fighters and F-15s . The Eagle is not a problem in dogfight but late Sukhois are different fishes . I wish that the FAF would train more with India (example) to test the Su-30 .
Flankers in general are better dogfighters than the F-teens and we need to know more about them . Anyway , I trust the Rafale and its pilots to get the upper hand in a furball .
 
Cheers .
 
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BWisBack       12/16/2011 9:40:03 PM
Shooter :
""Finally; You never addressed the 13 degree Vs 30 degree seat back issue ""
 
?? Rafale 's seat is inclined at 29 degree . 
For God sake , check your numbers !!! 
 
Cheers .
 
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BWisBack    @SQhooter   12/16/2011 10:07:34 PM
In fact , I responded to you and then , I noticed that you had no clue and you used this video to spread BS again .
Your stupidity has no limit ... You even go against your pilots which is telling ...
 
Cheers .
 
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