The F-16 and F-22 both have a canopy that consists of one single bubble of glass for perfectly unobstructed visibility. Why wasn't or couldn't the F-35 have been given the same? It has this unsightly bar of metal near the front that blocks a significant portion of the pilot's visibility in flight.

Leopard , a lot of people have been asking the very same question for years and there is no good reason why they didn 't choose a frameless canopy . It is an enigma and a mistake .

The DAS excuse doesn 't hold water . In fact , nothing holds water . 

I am going to get some stick but never mind .

 

The F-35 project was a huge mistake , maybe the biggest one in aviation history . If we leave aside the political manoeuver designed to sink the European aviation industry and only take into account what happened from the blue prints to the actual prototypes , it has been a complete mess . Personaly , I have never seen the USA missing the target by that much before .

 

The entire program has been run in the worse possible manner . It is a shock for me and for MANY others . Usualy , the USA reach their goals much quicker and much better .

I tell you what has gone wrong :  it is down to how LM relies on poor subsiders . A very small percentage of the aircraft is actualy made by LM , the main stuff is made by other people only interested in money and the quality is lost on the way for profit .

Then , since so many foreigners are giving money to the program , LM took the easiest way ~lazy people~ and ultimatly ended up with a dog , incapable to reach what was planned . They can 't even reach 20% of the flight tests . Sure , the things is full of various gizmos but it can 't fly the way it 's suppose to fly .

The VTOL version is an aberation and will never work . If it ever does work (God bless) , the aircraft is going to be the best all time hangar queen .

The first F-35 is supposed to enter service in 2018 , really ? Yeah , maybe ... But it will still be a dog with brilliant gizmos .

If one think that the F-35 can survive an encounter with a 2020 T-50 or J-20 , just let me know . Even an up to date F-22 will have a hard work (if the F-22 fleet is still flying in 2020 , who knows) .  

 

 

 

I don't agree entirely with the way the F-35 program is being run. Personally I reckon they should have just concentrated on getting more stealth airframes out their at a reasonable price and put an existing avionics suite into it, thus eliminating much of the technology risk while providing a good capability boost. Then they could have worried about updating the avionics suite in future models.

 

That said, I don't think anybody in the European aircraft industry has anything to smirk about when it comes to comparing Dassault or Eurofighter programs against this one. The reality is that those programs are producing aircraft that are only moderately better than upgraded types the Americans have had in service for 30 plus years, and it took two decades to get each into service. In contrast the F-35 program will take a similar amount of time to get the most advanced fighter ever into service.

 

As far as I know the European industry isn't planning anything remotely comparable to the F-22, the F-35, the T-50 or the J-20, so rather than critisising the Americans for attempting to "sink the European aviation industry", I would suggest that the Europeans should look at why their aviation industry can't develop a competing product. 

 

I'm going to ignore Eli as he's a certifiable idiot except to say that neither T-50 or J-20 are likely to have anything like the same levels of VLO or sensory capability as the F-35, J-20 in particular looks typically chinese. but AG, you're more or less right about Europe in particular, with the caveat that Britain has at least been involved in the JSF program from inception, admittedly as a junior partner.

 

R

 

R

Reactive , I am not going to ignore you , not because you are an idiot but because you are also biased .

 

How can you defend the undefendable ? The F-35 is a cursed plane . It will probably fly in Ops one day but this day in not for 2moro . If I was the USA , I would only keep the A version and scrap the B and C . Only the F-35A has a bit of a futur , the B will never work as planned and the C will be a nightmare to run for many reasons like sky high maintenance costs , then it will have an average range for a Navy fighter with an average payload . The "bring-back" capability will also be poor when it should be excellent wrt a Navy fighter . In Ops , you bring the weapons back (or some of them) 50% of the time .

 

If one wanted to post all the problems the F-35 program faced since day one , it would take ages and pages and that is a fact .

The US Congress should scrap most of the program and ask the Managers to give the money back to everybody and every Nation involved in the c0ck up . I tell you one thing Reactive , if the F-35 was a European program , it would have been scrapped years ago and the builder in charge sent to the European Court of Justice for felony . Ok , I exagerate a bit but you see my point .

 

You say :

Gunner :
"I don't think anybody in the European aircraft industry has anything to smirk about when it comes to comparing Dassault or Eurofighter programs against this one."
 
Please , don 't compare Dassault with the Eurofighter people 'cause you 're comparing Pros and amateurs (sarcastic but true , lol). Same with the Rafale and the F-35 , one had funding problems and the other technical problems (and huge cost rise) .
One is a hell of an operational strike-fighter , the other is a cursed prototype .
 
You also said :
"I would suggest that the Europeans should look at why their aviation industry can't develop a competing product."
 
Because we don 't have the money and because we have better things to do than to fund a true 5th generation fighter . Wrt stealth technology , the UK , France , Germany (the biggest of the bunch) know more than enough . I am also pretty sure that the end product would be better built than the USA products . Personaly , I would ask Fance to do the general design of the aicraft mostly based on the best stealth British knowledge (seconded by Dassault) and Germany 's extraordinary engineering would built the aircraft . Avionics would come from BAE and Thalès with Italy putting Her grain of salt , Flight by light by Dassault , engines from a joint UK/France venture . Weapons would be made by whoever want to .
The result would be something like a very fast and agile twin engine VLO interceptor capable to play the air dominance game with panache .
But we don 't have the will yet , we have better things to do and a more urgent crisis to deal with .

I was actually about to tell Reactive that his characterisation of you was an unnecessary slight which does not contribute to the tone of the discussion on this board, but then you come along and post something that confirms what he said about you with a ridiculously biased and nationalistic post. Silly man.

 

The facts about the Rafale are that it is a very good 4.5 gen strike fighter. However, planning for this type commenced in the late 1970s and France decided to go it alone in the mid 80's. It did not get into service with your Navy until mid-2001 and with your airforce until mid-2005, and it has really only been in service in meaningful numbers in the last couple of years. Even now it isn't up to speed with upgraded US  types in respect to things like radar performance and frankly isn't that much of a leap in performance over an upgraded Mirage 2000 ... the last truly competitive French type. 

 

Whats more, come 2020 or so it will be as obsolete as a pre-Dreadnaught was in 1910, because true fifth generation types will be in service in meaningful numbers. France has NO plan to address this and had no plan before the current financial crisis, so that is no excuse. So as far as I can see if you want to remain competitive the ONLY option you will have is to purchase F-35's, unless you want to buy T-50's or J-20's. I'm sorry if I don't find a very long development period to develop a non leading edge type which will only be competitive for a relatively short period of time before becoming obsolete particularly impressive, with no replacement on the horizon.

 

For all the problems associated with the F-35 program, most of which I put down to being a bit over ambitious and being at the bleeding edge (the Dassault has forgotten what that is of course), at least by the time it gets into service it will have a long-term future. In the meantime the Americans have the F-22 and upgraded teens (which can do what the Rafale can do) to cover its bases and most others in the F-35 consortium at least have the latter. Who has the long term plan and who is running very rapidly towards a dead end?

Still, you operated clapped out F-8's in your Navy for far to long waiting for the Rafale, because you were too proud to purchase F-18's like you should have, so I'd anticipate that Gallic pride will see you operating this uncompetitive type well into the 2020's.

 

 

 

R