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Subject: Buddy, Can You Spare A Few Used F-16s?
SYSOP    12/16/2011 4:57:00 AM
 
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Skylark    F-5 expensive?   12/16/2011 2:39:50 PM
If the Philippine government thinks that the F-5A or the F-5 Tiger II is too expensive to maintain, they will be in for a shock if they have to try to keep an F-16 in the air.  The F-5 series was purpose designed for economy and ease of maintenance, with simple systems, modest electronics and a robust airframe.  Upgrades to the avionics over the years have increased effectiveness and reliability at lower weight and cost, making the F-5 at least marginally effective while many of it's larger, more complicated contemporaries have been consigned to museums and scrap-heaps.  The F-16 is an excellent aircraft, and economical when compared to super-fighters like the F-15, but it still costs money to fly, and the single F100/F110 engine it uses is not cheap to fix or replace.  A better choice would be to acquire older F18s which use the cheaper and more reliable F-404 engine, has better avionics, a more robust airframe, better air-to-air / air-to ground attack capability and two engines for safety.  A lot of nations, like Canada, have purchase F-18s so some decent, low-stress, airframes should be available.  But regardless of what they choose, no combat aircraft is cheaper to fly or fix than the legendary F-5.
 
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Phaid       12/16/2011 3:21:32 PM
There really aren't any spare F/A-18 A through D models around.  Everyone who has purchased them is fully utilizing the ones they have, and the US is keeping its worn out ones to cannibalize for spares for the USN and USMC.  Even if they could get their hands on any, they would be high hour airframes.
 
OTOH there are plenty of available F-16s.
 
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cwDeici       12/16/2011 4:56:02 PM
The Phillipines is the most pathetic nation in the world, is what I've always thought after they caved in to the ransom of 1 contractor in Iraq and almost gave away the south to Islamic militants against the objections of the middle class muslims living there (and the rest of the non-Muslim population).
 
The US never even had the Phillipinos vote on whether to become independent...
 
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antares    All they can afford   12/16/2011 8:32:39 PM
All the Filipinos can afford is RPVs. RPVs will solve their maritime recon problems and provide them with persistent aerial recon and precision strike capabilities. The US does not produce fliers fast enough. The Filipinos will need to buy from the Israelis.
 
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Griffin63    Chavez to the rescue?   12/17/2011 4:03:38 PM
Maybe Venezuela can give them their old F-16's instead of the usual promise of building them an oil refinery. Although I can only imagine what sort of condition they would be in.
 
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Skylark    Bring back the F-20   12/17/2011 9:38:44 PM
Considering the obvious need for an effective, low-cost fighter concept, and the fact that the legendary F5 series is finally reaching it's sunset, I wonder if Northrop might consider re-investigating their failed F-20 Tigershark with an eye on bringing it back as an export item for air-forces like  the Philippines who need high performance at low cost.
 
     The F-20 was a brilliant concept, combining the best features of the efficient, reliable and easy to maintain F-404 engine with the well designed and robust F5 airframe, offering true mach 2 performance with an airframe that could take on insane maneuvers and still hold together.  The problem, at the time of it's introduction in the 1980s, was the F-16, though more expensive, simply outperformed the updated 1960s era design.  (But not by much.)  That, and the fact that so many cheap, F5-Tiger IIs were already glutting the second hand fighter market.  Now we see that some Nations, like the Philippines, Taiwan and others are finding it difficult to even keep the F-16 in the air, and the last of the Tiger-IIs have finally worn out, leaving a hole in the low-cost market.  The only other low-cost fighter out there is the Chinese JF-17, and the F-20 could run circles around it.  (And that's with 1980s technology!)  Just upgrade to the F-414 engine and update the electronics and radar to put it into the 21st century, and the F-20 could become a world-beater.
 
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LB       12/18/2011 5:02:59 PM
There's already two inexpensive F404 powered fighters with EL/M2032 radar available in the Korean T-50 and Indian Tejas as well as the more expensive Gripen.  It's not clear the world needs another one.  The T-50 in particular looks to eventually gain significant exports.  In any case the Philippines can't afford new aircraft.
 
While they need some fighters and the US should approve the give away it's questionable they wouldn't already have them if they hadn't kicked the US in the first place.
 
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carloboy       2/13/2013 1:08:15 PM


 

While they need some fighters and the US should approve the give away it's questionable they wouldn't already have them if they hadn't kicked the US in the first place.
A little over a year and you see that you were wrong. PH just bought 12 brand new KAI FA-50s, the more expensive attack variant of your mentioned T-50. Can your opinion ever hold any weight in future discussions?
 
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Belisarius1234    Wiring harness.   2/13/2013 2:51:54 PM
Not likely to update avionics without a MAJOR airframe redesign. 
 
B.

 

     The F-20 was a brilliant concept, combining the best features of the efficient, reliable and easy to maintain F-404 engine with the well designed and robust F5 airframe, offering true mach 2 performance with an airframe that could take on insane maneuvers and still hold together.  The problem, at the time of it's introduction in the 1980s, was the F-16, though more expensive, simply outperformed the updated 1960s era design.  (But not by much.)  That, and the fact that so many cheap, F5-Tiger IIs were already glutting the second hand fighter market.  Now we see that some Nations, like the Philippines, Taiwan and others are finding it difficult to even keep the F-16 in the air, and the last of the Tiger-IIs have finally worn out, leaving a hole in the low-cost market.  The only other low-cost fighter out there is the Chinese JF-17, and the F-20 could run circles around it.  (And that's with 1980s technology!)  Just upgrade to the F-414 engine and update the electronics and radar to put it into the 21st century, and the F-20 could become a world-beater.

 
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45-Shooter       2/14/2013 12:26:31 PM

If the Philippine government thinks that the F-5A or the F-5 Tiger II is too expensive to maintain, they will be in for a shock if they have to try to keep an F-16 in the air.  The F-5 series was purpose designed for economy and ease of maintenance, with simple systems, modest electronics and a robust airframe.  Upgrades to the avionics over the years have increased effectiveness and reliability at lower weight and cost, making the F-5 at least marginally effective while many of it's larger, more complicated contemporaries have been consigned to museums and scrap-heaps.  The F-16 is an excellent aircraft, and economical when compared to super-fighters like the F-15, but it still costs money to fly, and the single F100/F110 engine it uses is not cheap to fix or replace.  A better choice would be to acquire older F18s which use the cheaper and more reliable F-404 engine, has better avionics, a more robust airframe, better air-to-air / air-to ground attack capability and two engines for safety.  A lot of nations, like Canada, have purchase F-18s so some decent, low-stress, airframes should be available.  But regardless of what they choose, no combat aircraft is cheaper to fly or fix than the legendary F-5.
This is absolutely true! There is no other plane in the same league of cost per flight hour! Most others are at least an order of magnatude more costly, but what you get for the money is more effective by a larger margine than the money you save, so the F-5 and all of it's various versions are therefore poorer investments for your money.

 
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