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Subject: F-35 versus super hornet sortie rate
jessmo_24    7/19/2012 8:15:21 PM
8. How many targets can I hit with a super hornet using jassm, versus a F-35 using SDB? The pro Hornet argument falls apart when you start discussing sortie rates. How many Hornets do I need to hit a target withign a 600 NM combat radius? lets see 20 targets need to be hit. 10X super hornet each with 2X jassm and external tanks. 2Xsuper hornets with 6X AMRAAMS 2X super hornets escort jamming Possibly 2X Hornets buddy tanking. Thats an entire squadron of hornets for a few targets. compared to 3X F-35A,C with 8 SDB each =24 targets hit 2X F-35 A,C With 4-6 AMRAAms jamming counter air we are talking 5 planes versus nearly 20! you need 2 or 3 times the amout of hornets to do the same Job your Are My numbers fairly accurate? am I missing somthing?
 
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Reactive       7/19/2012 8:32:52 PM
My personal feeling is that you're missing quite a bit.. 
 
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geogen       7/19/2012 11:49:43 PM
Yep, it would seem there is something missing.  
 
Given the scenario you pose, @600nm target radius, load up say, just 6 Supers with 4x JASSM/-ER (or JSOW-ER) each, plus a centerline tank.  24 rounds, good to go.  Maybe add a 7th, a G model to support the package and add tactical support for the strike.  Now add CFT to your Super and you could probably load up on 5x stand-off rounds including a 5th under the center station.  That could drop you down to requiring just 5 Supers in your package.  Now of course factoring in the F-35C costs over 2x per super, you could likely afford the 6 Supers to your 5 F-35C... plus at least 100 JASSM-ER for the same cost!  ;)  Call it a day.
 
However, for the high-risk threats which must nevertheless still be put at risk, that's probably where you'd want to complement the Supers with next-gen UCAV assets as part of the mix.
 
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jessmo_24       7/20/2012 1:33:18 AM
1. The F-18E will fly 1200 Nm straight or in a 600Nm combat radius on 1 centerline tank with 4X 2kLB class weapons?
 
2. Do you realize that a F-35A,C can also carry 4X jassm and also 8XSDB and 2 AMRAAMs?
3. If your going to be contested, you could put 2x JSM or 8X SBD in the F-35s internal bays and still maintain fighter performance.  Do you think your going to mach 1.6 and 9gs in the 4X jassm carrying F-18E?
 
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LB       7/20/2012 3:00:33 AM
It's a both a bit simplistic a scenario and not at all analogous.   What exactly are the targets and why do you think 20 JAASM is a comparable weapon compared to an SDB?   You do realize JAASM has a 1,000 lb warhead and SDB 50 lbs?
 
Also sortie rate is how many sorties can be flown in a specific amount of time.  You're attempting to compare how many sorties are required by two different aircraft to hit a group of targets.  You haven't provided any data on the targets.  Maybe the enemy air force is already out of the picture?  Maybe the F/A-18's can get within 60 miles and use SDB as well?
 
SDB is vastly overrated in terms of what it's capable of.  You'd be better off with 16 specific targets, say medium buildings or aircraft shelters that require 2 2,000lb guided bombs each.  Run it assuming significant counter air and air defenses, again assuming minimal or rolled back defenses, and then see what that tells you.  The first day or few days of an air campaign is simply that.  Normally the F-35 will carry external ordinance.  It's a strike fighter or in other words a bomb truck.  Even ground breaking and game changing strike fighters are still bomb trucks.
 
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SH_Guy       7/20/2012 3:07:13 AM
Comparing JASSM to SDB isn't a relevant comparison. JASSM is in the 2000lb class, while SDB is 250lb. SDB is designed so that you can fit 4 onto a rack where you would previously fit a single 2000lb weapon using the BRU-61/A rack.
 
A single Super Hornet with a single CL tank can carry 4x JASSM or 16x SDB (4 each on pylons 3,4,8, & 9) while still carrying 2x AIM-9, 3x AMRAAM, and a targeting pod. Yes, its not as stealthy as an internally loaded F-35, but once the first day of the war is over that isn't an issue as all the effective air defence will have been removed.
 
Also note that the Super Hornet has a significant reduction in signature over traditional 4th Gen strike fighters like the strike eagle with the radar absorbent material, LPI AESA radar, integrated jammer, and towed decoys, among other things. Still not as good as the F-35 at operating in a highly hostile area, but still the best thing going at the moment.
 
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jessmo_24       7/20/2012 4:03:04 AM
My point. Was that 1. IT TAKES AT LEAST TWICE THE AMOUNT of hornets, to complete the mission versus the F-35. which you admitted. 2. That sdb was used opposed, to the jassm because in a high threat environment, the. F-18 can't. Use sdb. No matter how you slice it the F-35 is twice the warplane. 4XJASSM and a center line tank versus 4xJASSM and 8 sdb. 16xsdb versus. 24+ ON the f-35.
 
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jessmo_24       7/20/2012 4:04:23 AM
Please excuses. Grammer/typos I'm on a mobile.
 
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SH_Guy       7/20/2012 6:06:10 AM
For a comparison of heavyweight stores positions (2000lb capable) Super Hornet has 5 (including centerline which is typically taken by a tank) and F-35 has 6 (including 2 internal). The outer wing pylons on a F-35 are reserved for light A-A missiles (AIM-9) like the wingtip stations on a super hornet. The missile stations in the weapons bay can hold 1 BVR A-A missile (AMRAAM) each, like the hip stations on a super hornet.
 
So, the main difference is that there is two additional heavyweight pylons as effectively the centerline on the super hornet is almost always used for a tank, unless you go for the CFT option that Boeing is designing in which case the difference is one. But, the outer wing stations on a super hornet can be used for A-G weapons, just not in the 2000lb class. So the super hornet can carry 4x JASSM/JSOW and 2x JDAM while still holding 2x AIM9 and 2x AIM-120.
 
Also considering the SDB is 250lbs each so a rack of 4 is a bit over 1000lbs, the outer wing stations on the super hornet should be able to carry at least two SDBs but maybe 4 each. So 4x JASSM and 4x SDB is probable with 4x JASSM and 8x SDB a maybe, on par with F-35.
 
But the difference is not that suprising, the F-35 has a MTOW 4,000lbs higher than the Super Hornet but an empty weight (fuselage+engines) 2,500lbs lighter due to modern designs and materials (for A model, C model is 2,800 lbs heavier than super). The difference in internal fuel (for E model super w/ center tank and A model JSF) is 750lbs more for the F-35, giving the F-35 theoretically 5,750lbs more available weapons weight than the super hornet. Hence the JSF was designed around the fact that it was to have 6x heavy stations rather than 5x in the Super.
 
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Reactive       7/20/2012 9:06:15 AM
Yeah I think the "missing quite a bit" part is the rudimentary analysis of carriage, range and payload. 
 
To make any firm statement about anything you need a lot more detail and you need to be comparing like-for-like, SDB and JASSM as one example but also the likely deployed payload for such a mission in the first place, the "twice as effective" comment is bunk, especially if you were to take into account maintenance overheads: 
 
(note I don't agree entirely with the conclusions of the Time piece)
 
battleland.blogs.time.com/2012/07/09/f-35-nearly-doubles-in-cost-but-you-dont-know-thanks-to-its-rubber-baseline/
 
stratpost.com/gripen-operational-cost-lowest-of-all-western-fighters-janes
 
Even ignoring cost issues (if you are comparing operating cost per JASSM/SDB delivered), the operational importance (maintenance overhead (man hours) per flight hour) might curtail operational availability as has reportedly been the case with the F-22. 
 
Anyway, apples and oranges etc.
 
 
 
 
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Reactive       7/20/2012 9:07:34 AM
Note previous comment was addressed to Jessmo not previous poster.. 
 
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