How to judge what the best fighter plane is?

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Subject: How to judge what the best fighter plane is?
45-Shooter 1/3/2013 5:09:26 PM

I would list the following traits in the order of their importance; 1. Cruising speed under combat conditions. 2. Range/Persistence under combat conditions. 3. Flight qualities, specifically the ability to point the nose at the target easily and a very high rate of roll. 4. CL Guns with high MV/BC and rates of fire. 5. Pitch response, IE the rate at which you can load the plane. 6. Climb at Military Power. In WW-II terms, that means ~75-80% throttle, rich mixture and appropriate pitch on the prop.( A setting that can be held for at least 30 minutes!) 7. Top speed! To escape or run down the target. 8. Lastly the ability to turn in the so called "Dog Fight"! After you rate these choices, I'll mark the list with what I think is the strength of each atribute.

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Belisarius1234 You didn't understand a word of that... 2/1/2013 2:40:04 AM

Ah hell, for the rest of you.

BULLETS are the third body.

You might (must) cut speed so you don't overshoot your turn inside or outside his break and fly into HIS GUNS SOLUTION.

The rest of Shooter's bull manure is just too STUPID to waste time with.

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oldbutnotwise 2/1/2013 3:00:04 AM

hia time I will agree that his tripe is not worth replying to, every point he raises has been disproved, we provide sources he provides his opinion, he conveinently "forgets" 100 of post in which he was shown that he was wrong and comes up with the same tripe time and time again

fw 190 better than spit well yes when the fw190 entered service it was better than the MKV that the RAF had been using, but wait a minute that totally rubbish Spitfire was given a more powerful engine and what do you know became a match for the fw190 until the Ta came out, but wait a minute was the MkIX the latest mark at that time?

Its his usual technique of fitting facts to his theory, yet he claims to have been a analyst,with that kind of dishonest analysis then I would have hated to employ him

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45-Shooter 2/1/2013 1:55:39 PM

because what you thought I said, is NOT WHAT I said, you incompetent.

I listed both what I said and what you wrote, so what did I miss between the lines?

The diagram is SIMPLE.

It is so simple that it does not make any sence to me. All I see are two or three circles, IIRC and three lines that are, or almost tangent to those circles with some dots in the center. Without listing how they relate, the diagram is worthless to me.

I don't have to explain it to you and I won't. If you can't understand a little trig, then I'm not going to waste MY TIME. Go to school. LEARN.

I failed and now I am going to take my diagram and go home.

And quit piggybacking on your betters, pretending to understand concepts a twelve year old KNOWS and you don''t.

When have I ever piggy backed on anyone?

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Belisarius1234 Don't bother 2/1/2013 1:57:58 PM

me with your drivel.

When someone sensible posts then I'll respond to THAT.

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45-Shooter 2/1/2013 2:42:51 PM

BULLETS are the third body. I see seven labeled points. Three on various tangents, three more inside the smallest circle and one that appiers to be on the common tangent of both/three circles? Which one is the bullet(s) and which are the shooter(s) and which are the targets?

You might (must) cut speed so you don't overshoot your turn inside or outside his break and fly into HIS GUNS SOLUTION. False.

Let me spell it out for you. Under the problem I out lined and tried to explain, the two planes, S1 the attacker and his target T1 start 300 Meters apart. Time starts as the target rolls to make his 6G "Break turn". That is point one. It takes the target about 2 seconds to roll upto 90 degrees and he travels about 268 meters during that time, all in a more or less straight line. The target is now at point T2, and the shooter is at point S2 300 meters behind. having waisted 0.5 seconds watching the target roll while he reacts to the targets move. ( I was being most generous as the reaction time of almost all fighter pilots is under 0.25 seconds.) The shooter is now at a range of 255 M having covered 313 meters during the time it took the target to go 268 M. This is possition 2. At this point in time the target starts to pull back on the stick and generate load on the plane in a second of so, he is at 6 Gs. The radius of turn is just under 300 M. The circly he is about to traverse is 1885 M in circumferance. Having floored the throttle while rolling, he losses little speed in the next second. He covers 25.6 degrees of angle around the circle, but has still only traveled 134 meters distance. The shooter is banked behind him at 210 meters range and nearly 90 degrees of bank. In a plane that out rolls the target, he is at the magic 90 degrees before the target. But lets just say he is just starting to pull back on the stick. His plane's vector is still tangent to the target's circle, but short of the tangent point. When he beguins his turn, his circle and the targets will not be coincidental. Their centers will be about 45-50 meters apart, with the shooter's behind the target's. This is now point three, 3 seconds into the excersize. For the next two seconds the shooter either tracks the target in the gyro gun sight, or starts shooting to see where the tracer stream goes. In two seconds the target continues to pull six Gs and goes 268 meters farther along his circle. The shooter pulls about four Gs along his much larger circle with radius 2739 M and circumferance of 8605 M. He has only traveled 313 M and changed the direction vector of his plane by 13.1 degrees. Draw a line from the shooter's spot on his circle to the target's poss! Measure the range. At this point in time the target has been tracked for two seconds and is centered in a steady piper, or has been under fire for two seconds at a range of about 160M. During two seconds, the shooter can see the first part of the tracer stream hit or miss and correct his aim no less than four to eight times! ( 0.5 to 0.25 seconds reactions per try?) Some time in the next two seconds the target either dies, or escapes continuing his "Break Turn"! The Shooter will pas about 50 Meters behind the target at an angle off of about 15 degrees, not a very hard deflection shot at all! This is why 80-85-90-93-95% of all targets die with out completing the first 1/4 of a full turn.At this point the target must continue his turn for his reaction time while the shooter starts his roll to reverse his turn and escape, or zoom climb out of the fight to look for either a second target, or to see what target number one is doing. Given the diffeance in loads applied, 4 to 6 Gs and the 50 MPH advantage in speed, there is little to nothing the target can do to kill the attacker who is wise enough to kill or quit.

You could say that the target has other options, but then so does the attacker. The attacker also has some options the target does not. Due to the 50 MPH in hand he started with.

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45-Shooter 2/1/2013 2:46:47 PM

fw 190 better than spit well yes when the fw190 entered service it was better than the MKV that the RAF had been using, but wait a minute that totally rubbish Spitfire was given a more powerful engine and what do you know became a match for the fw190 until the FW-190D, not the Ta came out, but wait a minute was the MkIX the latest mark at that time? The Mk-XIV is just about a match for the Fw-190D. But no Spitfire ever flown was a match for the Ta-152.

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Belisarius1234 OBNW when you reply to this incompetent... 2/1/2013 3:14:09 PM

Evidence ...of HOW WW II fighters actually behave:

http://content.answcdn.com/main/content/img/McGrawHill/Aviation/f0412-02.gif" height="132" width="191" />

Self explanatory OBNW. 6 gees, My left foot!

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oldbutnotwise 2/1/2013 3:48:51 PM

Bel He hasnt a clue, I am going to give it a rest for a while, its so obvious that he hasnt a clue and is twisting in the wind trying to justify his posts, he posts exactly the same as he has previously and despite being shown to be wrong he continues to repeat his rubbish

like his post about dive down fire and zoom to altitude and then repeat, it is amazing how he can control the engagement, no posibility not being in the best posible position to start with

anyway I shall read your posts but will be giving shooter a complete rest for now

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45-Shooter 2/1/2013 6:44:49 PM

Evidence ......of HOW WW II fighters actually behave:

http://content.answcdn.com/main/content/img/McGrawHill/Aviation/f0412-02.gif" width="191" height="132" />

Self explanatory OBNW. 6 gees, My left foot!

And this explains how the target with a shooter locked on his six survives?
by the way, how does this explain the circumstances I outlined?

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45-Shooter 2/1/2013 6:47:45 PM

like his post about dive down fire and zoom to altitude and then repeat, it is amazing how he can control the engagement, no posibility not being in the best posible position to start with

You do not have that quite right. I said if the oportunity presents it self, then attack and escape to fight, or attack again as the situation warrents.

Tell me what would you do with me on your six at 300 yards/meters with 50 MPH in hand?

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