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Subject: How to judge what the best fighter plane is?
45-Shooter    1/3/2013 5:09:26 PM
I would list the following traits in the order of their importance; 1. Cruising speed under combat conditions. 2. Range/Persistence under combat conditions. 3. Flight qualities, specifically the ability to point the nose at the target easily and a very high rate of roll. 4. CL Guns with high MV/BC and rates of fire. 5. Pitch response, IE the rate at which you can load the plane. 6. Climb at Military Power. In WW-II terms, that means ~75-80% throttle, rich mixture and appropriate pitch on the prop.( A setting that can be held for at least 30 minutes!) 7. Top speed! To escape or run down the target. 8. Lastly the ability to turn in the so called "Dog Fight"! After you rate these choices, I'll mark the list with what I think is the strength of each atribute.
 
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45-Shooter       1/14/2013 11:48:11 PM

I do know it takes about 60hp to propel a f250 at 65mph
try this tool and see if it gets 16hp  http://ecomodder.com/forum/too...
WOW! Thank you for that link! I sincerely like that link and have saved it to my favorites list! http://ecomodder.com/forum/too... This is the first try on my dodge given factory published numbers and my guesses as to the UNKs! See how close it is to the OBD-II numbers in my actual car!

Once again, Thank you for that link! It is super!
 
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oldbutnotwise       1/15/2013 3:30:12 AM
 is a silly argument. I never claimed the USAAF was wrong, only that they changed their minds later after more tests.
 
Then provide some evidence of it because nothing I have sen shows it was done and you certainly havent provided even a hint that it was.
in the piston crowns if the mixture is to lean! The fact is that back then all aircraft engines and many still today have manual mixture controls to alow for variations in altitude much to great for any mechanical mechanism to compensate until the advent of the Kommandogerrat (SP) in the Fw-190!
talking out of you hat again, you are purely trying to justify you wild claim despite it being rubbished

Think on this, a modern car engine is designed to run from zero to 100mph+ often in trafficYeh RIGHT! How many tickets did you get last year?  none you saying a modern car engine is not capable of 100mph+?Not at all, I'm saying it can not do it "Often in traffic"! My slowest car will do well over 140 MPH, but it has seen those speeds only on the track and 100 MPH only out west on largely deserted super highways!
 
the Often in traffic related to the car being driven in traffic not down to 100mph in traffic (although i doubt I travel more than a few miles on a motorway without being passed b a car doing 100mph 
always in stop start conditions The average American car uses less than 16 HP most of the time it is driving! That is about 60 MPH in a big car, not a small Vaxhaul, Mini, or something.
 So what? a big car uses more fuelThan a small car under most but not all conditions! 
only when the small car is overloaded - and from that you get that more weight can have a big impact on fuel usage

to drag itself around, (and I think 16hp is very lowThen you are wrong! The average here in America, with our larger cars and SUVs is 15.5 HP at 55 MPH
Then i europe with our more efficient cars we must be down into single figures 
 hp is used more as it accelerates  This is true! which car does far more often then a aircraft This is true!  and that means what? That ALL recip engines have very little power at idle speed RPMs.
I thik that the 14-cylinder Wärtsilä RT-flex96C engine with an output of 80,080 kW (108,920 bhp) at 102 rpm it would seem to disagree
   One more time, If the F-1 engine is redlined at idel speed, IE about 6-8000 RPMs depending on model, it is not cappable of starting the car at all,

As an F1 car has a MAXIMUM idle speed of 5000rpm (FIA rules) I tthink you are wrong 

it will simply die and quit running! Havent you ever mistakenly tried to start your car in third gear instead of first and killed the engine?
 
I have started my car in third and pulled away havent you?
what! how the hell can it run at 150% throttle? or is that power? just how do you get to 150% of something? Because the throttle has a wire across the gate at 100%. When you select WEP, or War Emergency Power, you break the wire and open the throttle more than 100%. The amount of over travle used and throttling used varis between aircraft and engine types with the same engine in different planes possibly having different throttle settings! I am truely ammaised that you were not awair of this.
 
sorry but NO engine has 150% throttle regardeless of WEP or anything else and if you think otherwise you are in need of a buit of research, wep gave at best 10% and what has type go to du with it? if you use 100% throttle you are at 100% throttle there is no more, if you have a limiter that restricts it to 90% then that gives you your WEP but the throttle is not 100% untill its though this limit 100% is fully open
The rest I need to look at your figures

More to come. unfortuneately ther allways is with you


 
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oldbutnotwise       1/15/2013 5:26:02 AM
I do know it takes about 60hp to propel a f250 at 65mph
try this tool and see if it gets 16hp Ford states the Eco-boost F-150 will get 22, or 24 MPG at "Highway Cruising Speeds", at least according to the EPA plackard on the required by law Monrony sticker! That works out to 2.73-2.5 Gallons per hour at 60 MPH. So unless that truck is the worlds worst gas guzzler, it is actually using between 19.47 and 21.26 HP at that speed.
 
Actually it was the Guy who put me onto the site that quoted 60hp at 65MPh for his F250 so who Iam to believe eh?


 
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Belisarius1234    auto-mix contril. Merlin 66   1/15/2013 8:39:42 AM
 
Also on the PACKARD versions as produced.
 
B.
 


And exactly how was a spitfire pilot able to do this? as the spit had a automatic mixture control to do it manual would need the removal of the engine covers and the pilot to delve in with a screwdriver   You are just mistaken on this! The Spit did not have autmatic mixture control, see this artcle to learn the facts. Quote; "This engine introduced a pioneering example of an engine management system......... called the Kommandogerät (command-device): in effect, an electro-mechanical computer which set mixture, propeller pitch (for the constant speed propeller.........), boost, and magneto............ timing." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/E...

ok then clever clogs you show me the mixture control on a MKII spitfire, you claim it must have one yet all the cockpit photos I have seen fail to show it, the pilot manual fail to show it or mention its operation You provide the evidence its your claim

My mistake I was looking at a MkV, the Mk I and MKII had mixture controls mounted with the throttle, these were interlinked so that a unsuitable mixture could not be set for any throttle setting
so whilst not techincally automatic it is not a sperate operation as you stated

 
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oldbutnotwise       1/15/2013 10:14:17 AM
Looks like the MKi and MKii spits had an option of auto lean, this was a cruise position and only used for fuel saving on ferry flights etc.
Moving the throttle automatically moved the mixture control out of this setting (the conrol only had two positions Auto rich and auto lean )
 
Iam unsure as to when they moved to fully automatic But the MkVs I have seen (and those online) None have the Mixture control outside of the throttle 
 
 
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45-Shooter       1/15/2013 8:26:24 PM
the Often in traffic related to the car being driven in traffic not down to 100mph in traffic (although i doubt I travel more than a few miles on a motorway without being passed b a car doing 100mph Fair enough! But in traffic, most cars use less than 16 HP most of the time. They do use more when accellerating, but that is for only seconds at a time and then it's back to small throttle cruising speeds and less power consummed. Buy the way, acording to what I read, that is almost exactly half wind resistance and half rolling resistance at 55 MPH for most passenger cars. Trucks and small cars use much more power to over come wind  than cars. Wind resistance is largely porportional to the Length/hight of the car. Short tall cars have more resistance per square foot of frontal area than longer cars of the same hight. 
Then i europe with our more efficient cars we must be down into single figures Not really. While some very small cars with diesel engines might use very little fuel to go places, as soon as you load them up with four 200 pound passengers and require them to accellerate quickly and go 80 MPH for long streches, their gas mileage is not that different than our much larger cars driven under the same conditions. You see at high speeds arodynamics is more important than weight and the much larger throttle opening REQUIRED of the small engine in the smaller car uses more gas than the smaller opening in the larger car. Not that there will not be differances, just that they will be much smaller than you think! We even did a test of this in one of my Coledge classes. At 93 MPH, the TOP SPEED of a Volks Wagon Golf at that time it got less gas milage than my 429 mustang did at 100 MPH! 
I thik that the 14-cylinder Wärtsilä RT-flex96C engine with an output of 80,080 kW (108,920 bhp) at 102 rpm it would seem to disagree With what? 
   One more time, If the F-1 engine is redlined at idel speed, IE about 6-8000 RPMs depending on model, it is not cappable of starting the car at all,

As an F1 car has a MAXIMUM idle speed of 5000rpm (FIA rules) I tthink you are wrong it will simply die and quit running! Havent you ever mistakenly tried to start your car in third gear instead of first and killed the engine?
This is news to me and I would then adjust my premis to stipulate 5,000 RPMs, IF that is true, because I could not find that in the On-line posting of the current rules. ( But once again, I am no sluth when it comes to the internet.
I have started my car in third and pulled away havent you? Not with out increasing RPMs and throttle Poss and slipping the clutch!
what! how the hell can it run at 150% throttle? or is that power? just how do you get to 150% of something? Because the throttle has a wire across the gate at 100%. When you select WEP, or War Emergency Power, you break the wire and open the throttle more than 100%. The amount of over travle used and throttling used varis between aircraft and engine types with the same engine in different planes possibly having different throttle settings! I am truely ammaised that you were not awair of this. 

sorry but NO engine has 150% throttle regardeless of WEP or anything else and if you think otherwise you are in need of a buit of research, wep gave at best 10% and what has type go to du with it? if you use 100% throttle you are at 100% throttle there is no more, if you have a limiter that restricts it to 90% then that gives you your WEP but the throttle is not 100% untill its though this limit 100% is fully open
Semantics and BS!
 
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45-Shooter       1/15/2013 8:30:22 PM



I do know it takes about 60hp to propel a f250 at 65mph
try this tool and see if it gets 16hp Ford states the Eco-boost F-150 will get 22, or 24 MPG at "Highway Cruising Speeds", at least according to the EPA plackard on the required by law Monrony sticker! That works out to 2.73-2.5 Gallons per hour at 60 MPH. So unless that truck is the worlds worst gas guzzler, it is actually using between 19.47 and 21.26 HP at that speed.
 

Actually it was the Guy who put me onto the site that quoted 60hp at 65MPh for his F250 so who Iam to believe eh?






Certainly NOT anyone who has an agenda and is peddaling this easy to disprove BS! Try asking FORD on their official Web page! It is a Crime in this country to lie in advertising and they would not state the EPA Mileage figures they do, if they could not prove it! Very serriously! You have to be more skeptical of people with an agenda!
Now ask yourself what is my agenda and how does what I say advance it!

 
 
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oldbutnotwise       1/16/2013 3:01:25 AM
 
the Often in traffic related to the car being driven in traffic not down to 100mph in traffic (although i doubt I travel more than a few miles on a motorway without being passed b a car doing 100mph Fair enough! But in traffic, most cars use less than 16 HP most of the time. They do use more when accellerating, but that is for only seconds at a time and then it's back to small throttle cruising speeds and less power consummed. Buy the way, acording to what I read, that is almost exactly half wind resistance and half rolling resistance at 55 MPH for most passenger cars. Trucks and small cars use much more power to over come wind  than cars. Wind resistance is largely porportional to the Length/hight of the car. Short tall cars have more resistance per square foot of frontal area than longer cars of the same hight. 
16 is total rubbish and you know it, 16np is unlikely to move a yank tank from stationary (16hp mght be able to maintain a steady speed on a flat road without corners but thats about it)
I thik that the 14-cylinder Wärtsilä RT-flex96C engine with an output of 80,080 kW (108,920 bhp) at 102 rpm it would seem to disagree With what? 

that 4 stroke engines dont produce power at low revs
   One more time, If the F-1 engine is redlined at idel speed, IE about 6-8000 RPMs depending on model, it is not cappable of starting the car at all,

As an F1 car has a MAXIMUM idle speed of 5000rpm (FIA rules) I tthink you are wrong it will simply die and quit running! Havent you ever mistakenly tried to start your car in third gear instead of first and killed the engine?
This is news to me and I would then adjust my premis to stipulate 5,000 RPMs, IF that is true, because I could not find that in the On-line posting of the current rules. ( But once again, I am no sluth when it comes to the internet.
yes we know you are incapable of finding anything that disagrees with your thoughts on a subject
  
what! how the hell can it run at 150% throttle? or is that power? just how do you get to 150% of something? Because the throttle has a wire across the gate at 100%. When you select WEP, or War Emergency Power, you break the wire and open the throttle more than 100%. The amount of over travle used and throttling used varis between aircraft and engine types with the same engine in different planes possibly having different throttle settings! I am truely ammaised that you were not awair of this. 
Er no, the wire restrictor you mention was firstly only on MkVs and later (and not all MKVs) and it was at 90% throttle you cannot have move than 100% of something without adding additional to it, to have 150% throttle you would need to add another throttle to it, 100% = all of something its in the definition 
 



sorry but NO engine has 150% throttle regardeless of WEP or anything else and if you think otherwise you are in need of a buit of research, wep gave at best 10% and what has type go to du with it? if you use 100% throttle you are at 100% throttle there is no more, if you have a limiter that restricts it to 90% then that gives you your WEP but the throttle is not 100% untill its though this limit 100% is fully open

Semantics and BS! ---- oh I see when you are corrected its symantics and BS but whe you use it its fact and we are unable to see the truth, what a BS artist you are, you rekond you are an engineer but you show little understanding that terms are specifically designed to avoid confusion, you make up measurements of things to suit yourself rather than use universally accepted terms, you miss define vital definitions and yet claim to be such a hotshot, go learn what you claim to know and then come back


 
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oldbutnotwise       1/16/2013 3:26:09 AM
do know it takes about 60hp to propel a f250 at 65mph
try this tool and see if it gets 16hp Ford states the Eco-boost F-150 will get 22, or 24 MPG at "Highway Cruising Speeds", at least according to the EPA plackard on the required by law Monrony sticker! That works out to 2.73-2.5 Gallons per hour at 60 MPH. So unless that truck is the worlds worst gas guzzler, it is actually using between 19.47 and 21.26 HP at that speed.
 
ctually it was the Guy who put me onto the site that quoted 60hp at 65MPh for his F250 so who Iam to believe e
    
certainly NOT anyone who has an agenda and is peddaling this easy to disprove BS! Try asking FORD on their official Web page! It is a Crime in this country to lie in advertising and they would not state the EPA Mileage figures they do, if they could not prove it! Very serriously! You have to be more skeptical of people with an agenda!
Now ask yourself what is my agenda and how does what I say advance it!
As you initialy used this i your post to support your argument and the person who informed me had NO interest in this argument and was using this tool to accurately assess his trucks theroetical performance to compair with what his instruments were showing I would say that he was without agenda and you are certainly with agenda.
 
so you have a mpg figure (for a f150 not a f250! i  noticed) and a speed which gives a fuel consumption figure, and then by magic you have your hp figure!
 

Figure out how fast you are burning gasoline at 60mph and then calculate 9kw per
gallon. If you are burning 1 gallon an hour then you are using 9kw which would
translate to 60mpg . . . 30mpg would be 2gph or 18kw /750 watts per Horse Power
you end up with 24HP at 60mph.  so how is that 21hp ish at 22mpg?  


 
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Belisarius1234    You don't need a ton of text...    1/16/2013 2:08:42 PM
to shoot Shooter down. Just pick the central fact error on which he builds his house of cards, OBWN.
 
Many aircraft engines had an analog auto-fuel mix control set for optimum based in rpm output. Where BOTH of you seem to stumble is where the auto-control is also tied to a barometric sensor or a simple altimeter. Further (this is Shooter, especially), you further confuse the Kurt Tank power-egg solution, for just the simple auto-fuel mix control. 
 
Tank's solution for the FW 190 was a lot more involved and complex. The automotive engineers who worked with him had to meet THREE separate decision circuits in one simplified control setup, all governed by a SINGLE altitude sensor.
 
1. Propeller pitch for density of air at altitude for thrust. Those paddles had to BITE for thrust.
2. Optimum engine revolution for maximum continuous horsepower at any given altitude.
3. Most efficient air-fuel mix at any given altitude. This was a two step regulation process handled in the mechanical breather circuit. The injectors were mechanically metered. The SUPERCHARGER was range-gated automatically by altitude band to boost to a defined parameter air flow limit to match the metered fuel injected.  
 
 The automatic engine controls were COMPLEX and hidden inside the engine, so that out of sight, out of pilot's mind was at work.  The pilot workload was simplified, the cockpit clutter was reduced and the pilot could be trained to FLY, not be an engine manager with all the damned throttle settings and sensor readings taking his eyes off the sky where those eyes needed to be.
 
AVERAGE German pilots needed less time to learn the plane and were more efficient in its use than AVERAGE allied pilots who had over FORTY switches and dials (P-47) to do what an FW 190 pilot could do with FOUR-manage his engine.
 
And THAT is the point.
 
B.
 
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