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Subject: Modify the B-17 into night bomber/low altatude streak bomber?
45-Shooter    2/14/2013 3:55:59 PM
Given the multiple lines of debate; B-17 Vs Lancaster Vs Mossy, I post the following question; To convert the B-17 from a day bomber into a night/streak bomber, remove the top, bottom and chin turrets, remove the waist and cheek guns and gunners, relocate the flight deck to just behind the bombadier's space so that there is onlythree or four crew! Install large spinners on the props and install a single 20 mm auto-cannon on a flexible "X" bow mount in the plexi nose. Reduction in frontal area, weight and increases in streamlinning make flight both much faster and much more efficient! Since there is room for four 4,000 pound MC bombs in the bomb bay, the shakles should be modified to hold those four heavy bombs if the larger shakle does not fit now. Otherwise eight 2,000 pound bombs should be the standard load. Given the 210-220 knot cruising speed of the Mossy required to make the placard range, the new faster B-17N/S should offer more of everything that makes the Mossy so neat?
 
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45-Shooter       3/12/2013 1:40:04 AM

Where is there room under the cowl for a 20 mm again?
over the engine in the late model G and some Ks. Check the scale of that drawing to see for yourself how much room there is! As this picture clearly shows how much open space there is.
 
 Do not know how this helps or hurts the argument one way or the other?
Gives where the weapons were actually mounted.
Go down the page to the PP after that of the MK-151/20! Read the next PP! It clearly states that there were very few Mk-103s mounted in some late Me-109K-8s, IIRC!
Thank you very much for this last source!
Sincerely,
Stewart!
 
 
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45-Shooter       3/12/2013 1:45:19 AM

http://www.adlertag.de/waffen/guns.htm" target="_blank">http://www.adlertag.de/waffen/guns.htm Gives where the weapons were actually mounted.
PS. I forgot to mention the Book on Messerschmitts by Willy Messerschmitt himself! I would think that he knew more than a little about the planes he built and would find anyone who disputes his claim to be less than nearly as creddible! Don't you think?
 
 

 

 

 



 
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Maratabc       3/12/2013 2:04:04 AM
You are in error. You must learn to read carefully. Wing gondolas are not cowl mounts.





Where is there room under the cowl for a 20 mm again?



over the engine in the late model G and some Ks. Check the scale of that drawing to see for yourself how much room there is! As this picture clearly shows how much open space there is.

 
 Do not know how this helps or hurts the argument one way or the other?
>>. de="" waffen="" guns.htm"="" target="_blank">http://www.adlertag.de/waffen/guns.htm" target="_blank">http://www.adlertag.de/waffen/guns.htm" target="_blank">http://www.adlertag.de/waffen/guns.htm

Gives where the weapons were actually mounted.
Go down the page to the PP after that of the MK-151/20! Read the next PP! It clearly states that there were very few Mk-103s mounted in some late Me-109K-8s, IIRC!

Thank you very much for this last source!
Sincerely,
Stewart!
 

 
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Maratabc       3/12/2013 2:18:16 AM
Unless you read German?
 
 
That too would be an error.
 
And incidentally, it is NOT easy to come by. 
 
I would be interested to have you post page number and quote the sentence.
 
 
 
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oldbutnotwise       3/12/2013 4:26:45 AM
My big claim came from two sources, Willey Messerschmitt's book on the planes he built and my former landlord who flew a Me-109K with a 30 MM Mk-103 shooting through the prop hub and two Mg-151/15s under the cowling! Now I would think that willy knew what the planes he built could carry and my old NAZI pilot had a clue and pictures too, so regardless of what everyone else on the planet thinks, I still know that it was possible to put two 151s under the cowl and a Mk-103 through the prop hub!   
yeah right 2x 20mm under the cowl you just make this up don't you
  No, lets be correct here, it was two MG-151/15s, not 2X20 as you state above.
my mistake but as the mg 151/15 and mg 151/20 were the pretty much the same gun its a minor error
 
and I can only find its use as a Motor cannon before being replaced by the 20mm
 
my guess it is you mistaking the MG 151 for the MG 131 rather than him being wrong
 
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oldbutnotwise       3/12/2013 8:33:44 AM
http://www.adlertag.de/waffen/guns.htm" target="_blank">http://www.adlertag.de/waffen/guns.htm" target="_blank">http://www.adlertag.de/waffen/guns.htm" target="_blank">http://www.adlertag.de/waffen/guns.htm" target="_blank">http://www.adlertag.de/waffen/guns.htm" target="_blank">http://www.adlertag.de/waffen/guns.htmGives where the weapons were actually mounted.PS. I forgot to mention the Book on Messerschmitts by Willy Messerschmitt himself! I would think that he knew more than a little about the planes he built and would find anyone who disputes his claim to be less than nearly as creddible! Don't you think?
 
firstly  as pointed out above the 151 was wing mounted NOT cowl do you even read your own sources?
 
secondly I have not read Willy's book so cannot comment however based on your record I would say that either it doesnt say that or , in fact or nothing  

It is not Willy that is not credible but you you even prove that you have no credibility by posting a url to a site that doesnt support your argument, but then again this is perfectly consistant with your other posts

 
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Maratabc    BF109F   3/12/2013 11:19:10 AM
 
 
Whatever the confusion about the MG 131 or MG 151, the question was there a 20 mm cannon cowl mounted in the BF 109 F or G?
 
 
It was not. Not enough room was there for the cannons and ammunition trays.
 
Wings in gondolas or in the motor were the positions. If the disputer had read the first citation, he would have known this, despite what some old Nazi, or some supposed book which I know does not contain that information says.    
 
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45-Shooter       3/12/2013 2:58:55 PM

Unless you read German?
Just a little. During two tours in Germany totalling more than 6 years, I was not able to learn more than a smattering of German.
 
That too would be an error.
And incidentally, it is NOT easy to come by. 
I would be interested to have you post page number and quote the sentence.
The web site; http://www.adlertag.de/waffen/guns.htm">http://www.adlertag.de/waffen/guns.htm
The 6th PP quoted; MK 103: The upturning heavy bombers made also necessary heavy weapons. So
Rheinmetall-Borsig developed the MK 103, a 30 mm cannon. The size and the weight
were the mankos of this weapon, that was 2318 mm long with a weight of
magnificently 146 kg. On the other hand the muzzle speed, with 860 meters per
second  The book "German Aircraft Weapons of WW-II" stated 960 M/S. and the fireing rate of 440 rounds per minute were satisfying. One 30 mm cartridge weighted 980 g, 530 g dependet on the projectile. Should state 330 Grams. The ammunition was
transported by a metal belt.
This weapon only was used in some "Bf 109 K-8" as motor cannon. Because it was not easy to mount the gundarriage, only a small
number of "Bf 109" was equipped with the MK 103.
 

 

The other source is Willy Messerschmitt's book on the planes he built! So that makes two surpremly sourced books with the same info, ie, that at least some Me-109Ks had Mk-103, 30 mm Motur Kannons installed. The other two books, IIRC, also state that the Mk-103 only carried 60 rounds, instead of the 90 normally carried by Me-109s equipped with the Mk-108. This was because the Mk-103 rounds were fatter than the Mk-108 rounds. Since the German language side of this site sites other sources, I'll have to do some extencive research to make a list of them all.

 
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Maratabc       3/12/2013 3:27:46 PM
You are either mistaken, don't know German at all, or are fabricating? Which is it?
 
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oldbutnotwise       3/12/2013 4:04:33 PM
he is applying misdirection, when challenged about the 151/15 in the cowl he starts on the 30mm a gun and fitment that no one has challenged, its a common technique of his,
 
it seems he is incapable of admitting his error even when clearly presented with the facts
 
and as usual I doubt he has read any of the sources he is quoting
 
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