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Subject: Modify the B-17 into night bomber/low altatude streak bomber?
45-Shooter    2/14/2013 3:55:59 PM
Given the multiple lines of debate; B-17 Vs Lancaster Vs Mossy, I post the following question; To convert the B-17 from a day bomber into a night/streak bomber, remove the top, bottom and chin turrets, remove the waist and cheek guns and gunners, relocate the flight deck to just behind the bombadier's space so that there is onlythree or four crew! Install large spinners on the props and install a single 20 mm auto-cannon on a flexible "X" bow mount in the plexi nose. Reduction in frontal area, weight and increases in streamlinning make flight both much faster and much more efficient! Since there is room for four 4,000 pound MC bombs in the bomb bay, the shakles should be modified to hold those four heavy bombs if the larger shakle does not fit now. Otherwise eight 2,000 pound bombs should be the standard load. Given the 210-220 knot cruising speed of the Mossy required to make the placard range, the new faster B-17N/S should offer more of everything that makes the Mossy so neat?
 
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oldbutnotwise       2/26/2013 3:13:15 AM
I know its only a model but it is supposed to be to scale with 2000lbs not much room there
 
 
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giblets       2/26/2013 1:02:00 PM
I am starting to laugh at this thread quite a lot, Shooter, stop being a total troll and accept that the B17 never carried 4,000lbs, and could not fit them internally.
Unless you can find a specific source that states that 4,000lb bombs, or shows  this, then please stop trolling, you are making yourself look like an idiot.
 
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45-Shooter       2/26/2013 2:57:41 PM

You shouldn't be that stupid, Stuart. Don't you KNOW that people can tell at a glance that you never did what you claimed? 
B.
Belisukius; You shouldn't be that stupid. Don't you KNOW that people can tell at a glance that you never did what you claimed?
 
 

If you doubt me, why didn't you do the research to actually measure the blue prints your self? I posted links to those blue prints and they proove that I was right and you are wrong, was wrong and always will be wrong!

 
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45-Shooter    I note with glee that you are mistakes in this too!   2/26/2013 3:18:43 PM

now the drawing of the internals of the bay, you may note that it is a artist impression and no measurements ca be thus taken either to support or discalim any side of this argument, if you look at the loading charts previously suuplied you will see that the 2000lbs is mounted too low
So now the loading chart you posted is wrong? I wonder what else is wrong too?
see the attached pic of a B17 with 1000lbs (note that aircraft has had its outside racks removed)http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y168/cazmodel/b17_bombbay_creative.jpg" /> Note that because of camera angle, you were mistaken on this too! See; http://home.comcast.net/~bzee1b/Moffett09/Moffett09.html">http://home.comcast.net/~bzee1b/Moffett09/Moffett09.html 
That link is for just one of the many pics in that link you provide and when they changed the point of view, the outside racks can clearly be seen. Dam those pescky wide angle lenses! 
 
Given the pics you previously posted pic of several bombs, also labled by you as 1,000 pounders, with the outside racks not visible from that angle with that lens and the new pics that now shows the entire bay, prooves that you were wrong again! Also IF your prior post was correct, then they have a 1,000 pound bomb on the top shackle of the inside rack? So which is it? Were you wrong then, or are you wrong now?

 
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oldbutnotwise       2/26/2013 4:01:07 PM
now the drawing of the internals of the bay, you may note that it is a artist impression and no measurements ca be thus taken either to support or discalim any side of this argument, if you look at the loading charts previously suuplied you will see that the 2000lbs is mounted too low
So now the loading chart you posted is wrong? I wonder what else is wrong too?
see the attached pic of a B17 with 1000lbs (note that aircraft has had its outside racks removed)http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y168/cazmodel/b17_bombbay_creative.jpg" target="_blank">http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y168/cazmodel/b17_bombbay_creative.jpg" target="_blank">http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y168/cazmodel/b17_bombbay_creative.jpg" />Note that because of camera angle, you were mistaken on this too! See; http://home.comcast.net/~bzee1b/Moffett09/Moffett09.html" target="_blank">http://home.comcast.net/~bzee1b/Moffett09/Moffett09.html" target="_blank">http://home.comcast.net/~bzee1b/Moffett09/Moffett09.html">http://home.comcast.net/~bzee1b/Moffett09/Moffett09.html" target="_blank">http://home.comcast.net/~bzee1b/Moffett09/Moffett09.html" target="_blank">http://home.comcast.net/~bzee1b/Moffett09/Moffett09.html
That link is for just one of the many pics in that link you provide and when they changed the point of view, the outside racks can clearly be seen. Dam those pescky wide angle lenses! 
Given the pics you previously posted pic of several bombs, also labled by you as 1,000 pounders, with the outside racks not visible from that angle with that lens and the new pics that now shows the entire bay, prooves that you were wrong again! Also IF your prior post was correct, then they have a 1,000 pound bomb on the top shackle of the inside rack? So which is it? Were you wrong then, or are you wrong now?
 
yes I was wrong, I thought given just how little space there was between those bombs and the metalwork that surely they must be 1000lbs because someone here insists that you can get a 4000lbs in there  or 3 x2000lbs or even 34 x 500lbs and if they were only 500lbs then there was even less space available
 
so I made a little mistake yet you cling to your assumption, between ID'ing those bombs as 1000lbs is such a horrendous error then what of your ID'ing 34 500lbs fitting in there? or 3x 2000lbs or a 4000lbs
I do realise that you are so rarely right that you must celibrate ever little victory even when it actually weakens your claim
 
 
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Belisarius1234       2/26/2013 4:27:23 PM
 
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Belisarius1234    Does the term    2/26/2013 4:29:51 PM
Frequently Opposer of Learning apply here?
 
 
B.
 

 
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45-Shooter    So we are back to a roughly drawn loading diagram?   2/26/2013 6:21:39 PM



Just to point out just a few defects of the above drawings, like where they do not match each other, have different scale thicknesses of the rack beams, etc...
But wait, note the rough size of the two thousand pound bombs in the bottom right drawing? Note also that the catwalk is shown at the very bottom of inside racks, instead of several feet above the very bottom of the bay as in both the many fotos and other diragrams. But if this drawing is to be taken as any sort of gage to fit which bombs, then the 4000 pound bomb would certainly fit above the possition of that shown for the 2000 pound bombs!
Finally, I point out that the diagram is even labled "Bomb Relesase Squence Diagram"

 
 
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45-Shooter    So we are back to a roughly drawn loading diagram?   2/26/2013 6:26:44 PM


now the drawing of the internals of the bay, you may note that it is a artist impression and no measurements ca be thus taken either to support or discalim any side of this argument, if you look at the loading charts previously suuplied you will see that the 2000lbs is mounted too low
So now the loading chart you posted is wrong? I wonder what else is wrong too?
see the attached pic of a B17 with 1000lbs (note that aircraft has had its outside racks removed)http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y168/cazmodel/b17_bombbay_creative.jpg" target="_blank">http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y168/cazmodel/b17_bombbay_creative.jpg" target="_blank">http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y168/cazmodel/b17_bombbay_creative.jpg" target="_blank">http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y168/cazmodel/b17_bombbay_creative.jpg" target="_blank">http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y168/cazmodel/b17_bombbay_creative.jpg" />Note that because of camera angle, you were mistaken on this too! See; http://home.comcast.net/~bzee1b/Moffett09/Moffett09.html" target="_blank">http://home.comcast.net/~bzee1b/Moffett09/Moffett09.html" target="_blank">http://home.comcast.net/~bzee1b/Moffett09/Moffett09.html" target="_blank">http://home.comcast.net/~bzee1b/Moffett09/Moffett09.html" target="_blank">http://home.comcast.net/~bzee1b/Moffett09/Moffett09.html">http://home.comcast.net/~bzee1b/Moffett09/Moffett09.html" target="_blank">http://home.comcast.net/~bzee1b/Moffett09/Moffett09.html" target="_blank">http://home.comcast.net/~bzee1b/Moffett09/Moffett09.html" target="_blank">http://home.comcast.net/~bzee1b/Moffett09/Moffett09.html" target="_blank">http://home.comcast.net/~bzee1b/Moffett09/Moffett09.html
That link is for just one of the many pics in that link you provide and when they changed the point of view, the outside racks can clearly be seen. Dam those pescky wide angle lenses! 
Given the pics you previously posted pic of several bombs, also labled by you as 1,000 pounders, with the outside racks not visible from that angle with that lens and the new pics that now shows the entire bay, prooves that you were wrong again! Also IF your prior post was correct, then they have a 1,000 pound bomb on the top shackle of the inside rack? So which is it? Were you wrong then, or are you wrong now?
 
yes I was wrong, I thought given just how little space there was between those bombs and the metalwork that surely they must be 1000lbs because someone here insists that you can get a 4000lbs in there  or 3 x2000lbs or even 34 x 500lbs and if they were only 500lbs then there was even less space available
 
so I made a little mistake yet you cling to your assumption, between ID'ing those bombs as 1000lbs is such a horrendous error then what of your ID'ing 34 500lbs fitting in there? or 3x 2000lbs or a 4000lbs
I do realise that you are so rarely right that you must celibrate ever little victory even when it actually weakens your claim
 
I just want to point out one last thing;
If you go to those pages, there are dozens of photos of the B-17/24 and P-51 that flew into that air port and were also taken of that plane from many angles. Look at the one of the B-17 sitting with it's bomb bay doors open and the crouds of spectators both beside and inside the bay. Note also the many other pictures take inside and through the hatch into the bomb bay from both ends. With the doors open, it is clear that the bay must be at least 8' wide and almost 10' long. Just from the pictures you post above that is!

 
 
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Belisarius1234    I don't HAVE to.   2/26/2013 9:35:04 PM
I already did and posted it, which is why your bullshipn is not worth considering. The fall paths of a B-17's drops were just barely wide enough to clear a 2000 lber. The last diagram I put up gave the clearances.
 
So let's see.
 
You lied about internal carriage for the B-17.
 
You lied about Mosquito bomb carriage and fuel consumption rates.
 
You lied about the Wright R-1820
 
You lied about the dangers of night bombing (daylight was safer.)
 
You lied about knowing trig and geometry.
 
You lied about the P-38 (in which I am an EXPERT.)
 
You lied about dog-fighting.
 
Hmmmm.
 
What can we conclude?
 
B.

 
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