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Subject: F-35 vs. Eurofighter
IAFbestinworld    8/13/2004 11:49:07 PM
Lockheed says that besides the f-22, the f-35 will be the best air to air fighter in the future, is this true? Could an f-35 take a Eurofighter? My opinion says yes since f-35 contains more stealthy characteristics.
 
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Rule Britannia    RE:f-35 vs. Eurofighter   8/17/2004 4:47:01 PM
These figures are published not by the Eurofighter consortium themselves but by international research conducted by DERA and are ratified by the House of Commons defence Select committee, I have not used glossy promotions to try and sell the EF2000 but have used factual information backed up by manufacturers like in explaining the X-Band radar not dodgy press sources penned by disgraced journalists. The Eurofighter consortium like Airbus and BAE and EADS are subject to EU and domestic marketing and copyrighting laws, which would make it highly unlikely that falsified or inaccurate information has been published in regards to the Eurofighter without the risk of heavy fines. I myself have had many years experience in operating under this regime when involved with potential export deals and industry fairs in Shipbuilding, it is a completely porous system, how on earth can impartial sources get access to any greater factual information that is not officially made available by the manufacturer without committing espionage? “These are properties of AESA radars in general and most are common to passive phased array radars.” The APG-79 radar has a smaller steered Travelling Wave Tube, causing it to produce more intense movements to scan a particular area in comparison to the AMSAR which has a knock on effect on ease of detection, resistance to ECM, on RCS, etc… The APG-79 radar also does not have three processing channels which enables more efficient sidelobe nulling, interference blanking and jammer classification another possible advantage is Conformal Smart Skin Array arrangement that uses high speed wide band optical links and a centralised processing system to integrate all the sensors on board like Pirate ATFLIR and IRST system making it far more efficient another could be the IIF system which incorporates NCTR. In regards to possible scaling back it seems to be simply hear-say, all governments have committed to D&M stage three of the project on AMSAR. “Has something changed in the last four years in any of these programs, except for how far behind the programs are? Saying a reference about the generation of the aircraft is more relevant because of the date seems flawed to me.” I am referring to advances made in the design such as the development of AMSAR,3D TVC evolution, voice control and RCS reduction features such as it’s flowing structure, supercruise capability, low RCS Cross Section (reportedly 4x less than the Tornado F3), passive sensors, use of Iron Ball RAM paint, using 70% Carbon Fibre Composites (CFCs), 15% lightweight alloys and titanium, 12% Glass Reinforced Plastics (GRP) and 3% other materials in production. http://www.air-attack.com/page.php?pid=43 Here is some published data in regards to calculated RCS in some contemporary weapons and aircraft: http://www.aerospaceweb.org/question/design/q0010.shtml http://www.aerospaceweb.org/aircraft/fighter/typhoon/
 
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Shaken    RE:Aero and instability- RMNod was:f-35 vs. Eurofighter - Rule PS   8/17/2004 7:27:02 PM
>> (RN-Mod) >> I agree but my point is that most of the information needed is not available to the public so we can't really make any good assesments of the aircraft untill they are made 100% public which won't be for a VERY long time. (Shaken) I'm right there with you, RN-Mod. My point was really that there are two big sets of difficult to derive factors that make estimating combat performance difficult. While these factors may be secret (or at least not released to the public), they are largely derivable with the right math. It is just a _LOT_ of math, so most people are content to work with thrust to weight ratio, wing-loading, angle of sweep and the like. -- Shaken - out --
 
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Patton620    RE:f-35 vs. Eurofighter   8/18/2004 6:38:59 PM
The f-35 and eurofighter are more than likely have different advantages and disadvantages over each other, but since there is not enough info about either fighter available on either fighter one cannot point out those advantages and disadvantages. but in my opinion the pilots flying the planes will be the deciding factor in a hypothetical conflict between the f-35 and the eurofighter. and anybody who has info on the two planes please share it, i would be most interested.
 
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Hellfire    RE:f-35 vs. Eurofighter - Hellfire   8/19/2004 10:37:55 AM
>> Well, I am telling you what I saw. If you're not going to take my word for it, then so be it. I am telling you the truth though Where did you see that?
 
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Hellfire    RE:f-35 vs. Eurofighter   8/19/2004 10:50:17 AM
The EF-2000 can have a better manoeuvrability, long range missiles -meteors-, datalink and all the latest gadgets, if it cannot see the F-35, it's all useless.. What's more, you can't coordonate your defense against stealth aircraft, so you loose a force multiplier. If the F-35s can detect the EF-2000s with their AESA radars without them noticing it, they should have the advantage of first look first kill.
 
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T800m101    RE:f-35 vs. Eurofighter - Hellfire   8/19/2004 11:08:58 AM
"Where did you see that" Well, since I moved to the US 7 years ago, I have seen F/A-18's fly a lot, and I have to say I am very impressed, I have seen them fly at McGuire AFB, Dover AFB, Willigrove NAS, and at Millville NAS. I had an ice hockey tournament in Virginia Beach, and it was near Oceana NAS, so one day I decided to go up there and watch some of the aircraft. After bout a half hour, i saw the Super Hornet practice maneuvers for about 15-20 minutes, and I was amazed at what it could do, very tight turns and a great vertical thrust. So there, that's when I saw it, a little less than a month ago.
 
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T800m101    RE:f-35 vs. Eurofighter   8/19/2004 11:11:07 AM
"long range missiles -meteors-" This is a good 10 years away bud. By then the AIM-120D will more than likely be into service, so they will be about the same.
 
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Hellfire    RE:f-35 vs. Eurofighter   8/19/2004 12:55:42 PM
>> This is a good 10 years away bud. By then the AIM-120D will more than likely be into service, so they will be about the same I know.. I just say it's not a 120+ km missile which is gonna make a difference against an F-35 since it's not going to be able to find it until it's 30km away...
 
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Rule Britannia    RE:f-35 vs. Eurofighter   8/19/2004 1:06:51 PM
"This is a good 10 years away bud." The Meteor BVRAAM is due to enter RAF service in 2010. “if it cannot see the F-35, it's all useless..” The F-35 is not invisible to radar, it like all stealthy aircraft has lower RCS or lower observerability, this does not mean the AMSAR equiped E/F2000 cannot find it, this is a better argument for the F-22 but certainly not the F-35 JSF. The E/F2000 will probably only have a marginally larger RCS than the bulkier and larger F-35 (It‘s main RCS advantage being internal weapons bays). “you can't coordinate your defence against stealth aircraft” Yes you can, if they can be detected and the F-35 can certainly be detected by radar. Even the F117A Nighthawk was detected by coordinated sixties vintage Serbian Radar ground stations and shot down by an SA-3 surface-to-air missile during the 1999 Kosavo campaign.
 
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Hellfire    RE:f-35 vs. Eurofighter - Hellfire   8/19/2004 2:07:25 PM
>> Well, since I moved to the US 7 years ago, I have seen F/A-18's fly a lot, and I have to say I am very impressed, I have seen them fly at McGuire AFB, Dover AFB, Willigrove NAS, and at Millville NAS. I had an ice hockey tournament in Virginia Beach, and it was near Oceana NAS, so one day I decided to go up there and watch some of the aircraft. After bout a half hour, i saw the Super Hornet practice maneuvers for about 15-20 minutes, and I was amazed at what it could do, very tight turns and a great vertical thrust. So there, that's when I saw it, a little less than a month ago You can't conclude anything from that.. How can you be sure that the hornets you had seen before used all their manoeuvrability? What's more the bigger an aircraft is the more it will seem manoeuvrable for the same turn rate, and the more it will seem to accelerate. In the air shows that I've been to, the most manoeuvrable seemed to be the mig-29. But it's bigger than an F-16, so it's hard to tell. The one which seemed to accelerate the most was the su-27. However the flanker doesn't have a t/w ratio higher than an F-16, and both have about the same acceleration as far as I know, or the difference is not significant enough to be judged just by looking at them, although the sukoi seemed to accerate much more. Finaly I've been in the armee de l'air and I've never seen a M2000 turn 9gs. So it's almost impossible to conclude anything from what you've seen.
 
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